I use the Reflex stick for xbox

its mapped for MKDA like this

SP 1 block 2
cs 3 nothing 4

feels like old arcade to me

Actually, I would be against implementing diagonal commands. It's really a mess sometimes to get these right on regular controllers (especially the PS2) and since I'm a poor college student, I'd hate to pay an extra 40-something-euros to get a specialised controller (that isn't even guaranteed to work).

I wouldn't mind if they reduced the number of buttons, however. Like most people here, five would be a mighty good number.

VQ

This thread is useful and it deserves to be where all can see it.

Do not bump posts.

Anyway, diagonals should be implemented in the control scheme of MKD. It is actually easiest to pull off on a PS2 controller. It would also open up more spaces for new maneuvers.

Starwinderbeta Wrote: Do not bump posts. Anyway, diagonals should be implemented in the control scheme of MKD. It is actually easiest to pull off on a PS2 controller. It would also open up more spaces for new maneuvers.

Yes, it really would. As long as MK has no directionals, it will continue to have a shallow move list.. Come on, EVERY other 3d fighting game has directional commands.....

Butt WE MK PHANS AR3 TWO STUp1D TWO Pess TEH digagonales und TOO buttins at 1nce.

It's sad that that's how Midway looks at us.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Butt WE MK PHANS AR3 TWO STUp1D TWO Pess TEH digagonales und TOO buttins at 1nce. It's sad that that's how Midway looks at us.

lol.

step your game up...........

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Butt WE MK PHANS AR3 TWO STUp1D TWO Pess TEH digagonales und TOO buttins at 1nce. It's sad that that's how Midway looks at us.

LOL! Dude, I want it simple, though. If it's simple, it's fun. Diagonals are to much work. Kind of like blocking.

boost.

Backdash cancel, universal tracking 50/50 whatever...

Quite frankly, I don't get all of this mumbo jumbo. I am not familiar with any of these terms really.

If someone would like to explain all of this crap to me, I'd like that.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: Backdash cancel, universal tracking 50/50 whatever... Quite frankly, I don't get all of this mumbo jumbo. I am not familiar with any of these terms really. If someone would like to explain all of this crap to me, I'd like that.

Backdash Cancel is when one taps back twice (Backdash) to back dash directly after attacking, to eliminate recovery time and create space between the player and the opponent. In Scorpion's Pi-Gua, he could BDC out of every attack, making him pretty much safe from counter attacks.

Universal Tracking is a flaw in MKDA. I'm not sure how it's done. I think you sidestep up before or at the same time when attacking. When that is done, whatever attack you throw out will always track and hit the opponent, even if the opponent sidesteps, making the already lacking sidestepping system useless.

50/50 is a complex topic, one has to understand how it can be both good and bad when it comes to fighting games.

Generally, fighting games have certain things that make it bearable from pure randomness. In 2d fighters, a low attack can hit you into a chain much easier than a high attack. Also since overhead attacks, jumping in (low or high), etc. are easily shown, you can react to it. Therefore, blocking low is always a better option, then you just have to watch for queues to either break a throw or block high (due to the enemy executing a slower move or moving in)

This is called a non-50/50 situation because one option is so apparently better than the other. Lows are inherently faster and saferthan the other; thus you can play a smarter game and decide what the opponent is going to do based on how much risk you think he is willing to take at that point in the round. So for example in SF, when Ryu attacks, a down-middlekick > fireball is much safer than jumping in or doing a jump-in attack > chain since it is slow and can be easily reacted to. BUT, they are needed for mixup, so opponents have to fight intelligently to pull those off.

Likewise, in 3d, highs and mids are much faster than lows. Obviously throws get punished big time due to highs and mids. Therefore, blocking high is smarter in 3d fighters, and watching when the opponent does a low attack and fighting safe to avoid throws means you are defending intelligently.

In both of those situations, you have options that are more favorable, thus leading to a smart defensive game and a lot of reaction required from the player when the opponent decides to do the less optimal option. So if Im in a 3d fighter in other games, I will block high unless I see or predict the opponent doing a low or throw.

Now in those games, based on wakeup, forced situations, frame advantage, etc. You can force people into 50/50 mixups. An example of this is my Baiken in Guilty Gear. When I run upto someone, they have to fear me either doing a low attack or an overhead attack (if I have stock bar, I can cancel the overhead to be safe). In 3d games, you are commonly forced to block 50/50 mixups because you got knocked by something that staggers you so much that you cannot jab or attack with anything that would counterattack, so you're forced to block, in other games, you want to get into these situations because its impossible for your opponent to defend intelligently due to the mixup options being equal to eachother in speed and safety.

In MK, its a constant 50/50 game, you do not have to force the opponent at all. Because the best stances gives you a mixup game that is both safe and fast. Now those examples above, blocking in one is safer than the other, thus you should keep blocking at that height and watch for the other. In MK, its not the case. Since animation is jerky and rigid, moves come out lightning fast. Now tell me, how would you block if every option you're fighting against is equal? You can't, it's entirely random for some characters of how you block it since you cannot rely on your eye-hand coordination and reflexes to avoid it. All you can do is guess. Whereas other fighters you want to play smart and intelligently to force 50/50 mixups, in MK you have them all the time, that's why the game is so random.

So lets say you're fighting Scorpion. Scorpion Pi Gua has 3 and 4. If he hits you with 4 its a low, he can hellfire, if he hits you with 3 its a mid. He can backdash both and be extremely safe. Now ask yourself this, both of his hits come out at the same rate and with the same speed and safety, how could you possibly play defense correctly? You can't. That's why when two very skill players play MKDA, it's entirely random who will win, it's just a matter of who guessed wrong more, rather than reflex and strategic thinking of risk and reward.

In conclusion, if a game like MK constantly has options that are entirely equal and come out at the same speed and safety, all you gotta do is mix it up randomly. Because there is no true way to play it smart against a good player, both players will be blindly doing 50/50 mixups because there is no option that is better in terms of safety and speed than the other.

I mean rather than hearing how skillful someone won in MK in a high level match, you'll hear stuff like, "Dude, you totally guessed those two lows wrong, I so owned you." But in that player's defense, what could he really do about it? The options are equal and both of the options come out at blazing speeds. That is why MK is random, because skill, reaction and thinking doesn't determine who wins; what determines victory is who was more random in the 50/50 mixup than the other person.

Starwinderbeta Wrote: Universal Tracking is a flaw in MKDA. I'm not sure how it's done. I think you sidestep up before or at the same time when attacking. When that is done, whatever attack you throw out will always track and hit the opponent, even if the opponent sidesteps, making the already lacking sidestepping system useless.

Yup, just tap up before you do a move and every move will track. There is no reason to use sidestepping moves, moves that track better, or full-circular/half-circular moves that punish sidestepping because you can make everything track perfectly and never miss.

Tin: Try it by having your friend try to sidestep before you do a move thats very linear. Now hit up and then quickly do the move, your friend will now be unable to sidestep. With Universal tracking, you can make the main moves you use track, therefore you do not need moves in your movelist that track better because you can use the fast linear moves that you use in a 50/50 mixup.

Diagonals are as easy to press as forward or back.

At the arcades is where it's a problem because they are almost always messed up. They joy pad is at a strange 30* rotation that makes pressing the diagonals a hassle.

But on home controllers it's a cinch.


IMO the diagonals need to be implemented, it would add a lot of room for improvement to the fighters arsenals.

Thanks for confirming and clearing that up, HDTran.

I think I understood part of what you were talking about, although, I am still not a technical fighting person. Maybe if someone were to show me in person.

Anyway...


I don't think it will ruin the game, not for me anyway.

Hmmm... well consider this Tin, it'll help you a lot when you play MKD.

Let's say we're playing Rock-Paper-Scissors (RPS), it's an entirely random game right? Right.

Now lets assign each choice: Rock, Paper, and Scissor different types of attacks.

Rock = High
Paper = Mid
Scissor = Low/Throw

Now in other 3d fighters, the Rock (High attacks) and Paper (Mid attacks) are faster and safer than the Scissors (Low/Throw). Therefore you are more inclined to do Rock and Paper since you are safe. Now imagine, if someone is playing RPS with you that you can see them do scissors, but you cannot see them do rock, and you can only barely see them do paper. That is what a non-random fighting game is all about. Basically, different options are different in risk and reward, therefore creating a priority for both offense and defense. So Rock (Highs) are fast and safe, so your opponent might do a lot of rocks when they attack. Or maybe try some mids, less safer, but more of a reward in the terms of launching into juggles. However, mids and highs can both be blocked high, so you need to do scissors sometime, even though your opponent can see you do scissors, you need to attack low or throw sometime so that you will have a mixup game. Otherwise the opponent blocking high will be perfectly safe against you. Therefore, options are inherently unbalanced to make it strategic on how you attack and defend. You can't just go sweeping and throwing all over the place because highs will outprioritze you and you can see sweeps and throws a mile away.

Now in MKDA, there is no such distinction with the better characters. Imagine now that you can no longer see scissors, you can't see paper and rock is still the same. It is back to Rock-Paper-Scissors again in its real life form. Okay, so now highs, mids, and lows are close to almost exactly the same and cannot be reacted to with the same safety. Now ask yourself, how random is Rock-Paper-Scissors and how strategic is it really? Entirely random and NO REAL strategy at all, it is entirely random. No skill, no real thinking, just 50/50 mixup. If you don't know which is easier/better to block, how can you play a "GOOD" defense? You can't, you can only play a "GUESSING" defense, thus MKDA is hella random.

Bleed Wrote: Diagonals are as easy to press as forward or back. At the arcades is where it's a problem because they are almost always messed up. They joy pad is at a strange 30* rotation that makes pressing the diagonals a hassle. But on home controllers it's a cinch. IMO the diagonals need to be implemented, it would add a lot of room for improvement to the fighters arsenals.

Diagonals help create a lot of conventions in my opinion as well Bleed. Launchers, mids, etc. are all usually mapped around d/f for example.

HDTran Wrote: Diagonals help create a lot of conventions in my opinion as well Bleed. Launchers, mids, etc. are all usually mapped around d/f for example.

Aye, Law's(Tekken) dial-a-combo starter is a quick uppercut (d/f punch)... and slower than just normal quick jabs. The beauty, however, lies in the fact that even if you hit it... there is no gaurentee that the combo will work... BECAUSE IT CAN BE BLOCKED, not just broken 3 times. Sure, you can break it too... move low on one of the high attacks and hit(no special move just another option). A three breaker system would be ridiculous if auto-hit, full combos were implemented in Tekken. I'd set Law up and spam the combo as many times as it took to win(especially, if the breaker doesn't give frame advantage or apply damage). Yeah, you'll break the first 3, but you wont break any of the rest that will finish you off... So many options in other fighters I wish MK could deliver more than the Paper/rock/scissor mentioned above.

Hell, throws are still blockable... so, I've recently heard. Which still leaves 50/50--block high or block low on defense(there is nothing else to worry about defensively). I'll really be upset when and if AF is confirmed while attacking.

Anyway, out of all the threads on this forum(I peruse a few and respond less than minimal), I have kept up with this one and have looked forward in aniticipation for it to get bumped; just so, I could read some more.

The reason I love this thread is because of the many people on here that see the flaws in MK:DA, express them, and do their best to relate them to other fighting game fans to improve MK.

I'm not claiming to be a great fighter(I'd like to try my hand at some Kombat against the likes of you all in this thread[PS2--SleepWalKer]), or even know what the hell I'm talkin' about, but I've played fighters with options, I'm fairly intelligent, and I like them a whole lot more then I did MK:DA.

I've said elsewhere, and I will say again. I love MK and have played since '92, but other fighters have gameplay that is much more advanced than MK's atm. I may be slated.. "not a fan", or be told.. "to play the other fighters", but I am here, on an MK site, and participating(even if minimal) to hope for the best fighting game I could ever lay my hands on. The story rulz, fatalities rule, hara-kiri's(I love the addition)rule, the characters rule, chess/puzzle combat is gonna rule. IMO, it's about time that the gameplay owns the rest of the competition. I want to duke it out on MK:D for months on end.

I guess I'll wait and see what happens. I'm just worried that I'll be playing puzzle kombat all the time(balanced/fast-paced/quick-thinking).

---Diagonals are a must(More options).

---Unblockable throws/low throws are a must(A little mixup in action).

---A wake-up system is a must(I love wake-up systems.. am i gonna get up.. am i gonna roll if you approach.. am i gonna high attack.. am i gonna low attack.. am i gonna roll and low attack or high attack.. am i gonna wait, roll, and low/high attack.. or am i just gonna bounce back up when I hit the ground.. This kind of action keeps the brain active).

---Move properties are a MUST(Didn't know the term until I read these sort of threads, but I know exactly what you all are talking about now. I don't know the frames, but I instinctively knew my opportunities when they arose(in other fighters)).

I don't expect leaps in MK gameplay and I am not expecting hardly any done in MK:D(from what I've seen), but threads like these can only help to improve the gameplay. I wish there was more participation in them, so, the kommunnity as a whole could start speaking toward MK's future: not just the select few that I see time and time again telling it like it is. In my opinion, the majority of threads on a fan site should be like these. It is a shame that hypothetical(sp?) questions: the "what if", "what would you think", "kreate a character", "kreate a fatality", "IF Sonya is in...", "who can beat the DK?", "what are you gonna do first", etc, etc, etc take up the majority of this board. To me, gameplay has always been the most important. Sub Zero can rip a spine out all he wants... the real question is.. will it be possible against an advanced player?? At least in other fighters, I can still win against great players because of options, and my ability to be creative and throw unusual/interesting/baffling things their way.

I can't wait to see the ones in this thread lay down the law when online play gets into full swing. IMO, fatalities are only good if they can be performed. A low-tier may have the best.. you may be able to get it on your brother.. can you get it on the people in this thread.. Not Likely.

Sorry, lil' rant. I was just gonna respond to the diagonals(almost blew my lunch on my keyboard after reading the sarcastic responses to them... thnx guys ). I guess I had a little more to say though.

Some time back, someone said that this thread and the people who have participated intelligently(Not me, I'm just backing up what has been said and have not added any creative advice) deserve dragon points. I AGREE. Awesome thread. I want to be here after MK:D is released and hopefully, add something to it.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Butt WE MK PHANS AR3 TWO STUp1D TWO Pess TEH digagonales und TOO buttins at 1nce. It's sad that that's how Midway looks at us.

That shit is still too funny.
Thanks for the praise Sleepwalker, its always good to find some other people who care about MK's gameplay enough to read my rants, lol. But seriously, we love this series and we want it to get better.

good work........

mk needs more depth......

For real.... this game needs some major work,......

This thread has been updated for new players and revamped with definitions.

I dont think that mortal kombat is random in its attacks at all. There are people that are fast enough to where they can block almost all attacks. All you have to do is practice. Mortal Kombat is all about combos, not single hits.