No Satanic, you don't understand, a 50/50 mixup is random because there is no option that is safer than the other. Take Scorpion for example, he can mix you mid or low and they look exactly the same, with BDC you can cancel it and be entirely safe.

Scorpion only needs 4 moves to be played at top levels in Pi Gua.

Shove
Hellfire
3
4

If he lands Shove, he gets guranteed hellfire. If he lands 4 he gets hellfire.

His 3 and 4 are mid and low mixup that are both entirely safe with Backdash cancel and have around the same reward, after getting hit by a hellfire, Scorpion will move upto you and do another 50/50 mixup. Since no options are inherently better, faster or safer than the other, there is no way to play a "smart" defense.

Your argument would work if MK had fluid animation to the point where you can reflex against moves that look nearly the same or are extremely choppy coming out, but it doesn't. Look at Kenshi's b+4 in Tai Chi for example, it's almost an instant low and if done at the right distance and bdc, is extremely safe. Like many of the lows in the game. Sonya's b+4 > CS, etc. lows come out at blazing speeds.

The better characters have mixup games that come out at Blazing speeds that you cannot defend. The ones that suck are the ones that can't do 50/50, ex. Johnny Cage in Jeet Kune Do who has to rely on his slower sweep. Thus you block high most of the time and Johnny has to play mindgames with you to condition you into a low, otherwise you can just see it. That's What MK should be like, not where two options are so inherently equal/safe/fast that you can't play a smart defense. Much like in 2d fighters where you block low unless you see an overhead or jump-in or predict a throw. In 3d fighters, you block high unless you see a low or predict/see a throw coming. In MK, there is no preference in blocking height because all the best characters and a lot of the mid tier characters have equal mid / low options. The thing with 50/50 is its fine for certain situations, like when an opponent is down and coming up for example. But a game should not be 50/50 all the time, otherwise there is no real thinking involved, just reflex. And even then, reflex won't help you against the faster characters because they literally have equal mid/low that come out almost instantly, you can't defend against that. Competitive fighters should be about thinking and setting your opponent up for stuff that's bigger reward, but also more risk.

I can time things within 2/60 frames a second in Guilty Gear and even I know that against the good characters, its entirely a guess where they will do low or mid.

Eh I still do not understand all of this crap.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: Eh I still do not understand all of this crap.

and that's why you'll always remain another of the legions of people who try to argue against things they do not understand, so don't bother, and leave this thread to people who do, then everyone's happy, you don't need to read it and we get our own threads for dicussions on improving MK the way we'd like it.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: Eh I still do not understand all of this crap.

Let's say we're playing catch. I throw a ball overhand at your head ten times and you catch it all ten times. To catch that ball you have to have the palm of your glove facing straight ahead. Think of my throwing the ball as an attack and you catching the ball as a block. So you just blocked all ten of my high attacks.

Now, let's say on the eleventh throw I decide to throw the ball underhand so you have to catch it differently with your palm facing up instead of straight. You catch that one too. So you just successfully blocked a low attack with a low block. Why? Because you can see what my arm motion is and where the ball is going. My body language told you that this next throw was going downward so you knew that you had to change your catching style to accomodate.

Now let's assume the laws of reality are broken and I can throw the ball overhand and underhand at the exact same speed. Very, very fast. Faster than you can see it coming. So fast that by the time I'm done with the throwing motion you've already missed the ball. How do you catch it? Do you put your glove facing out to catch an overhand throw or do you put it facing up to catch an underhand throw? There's no way for you to predict how I'll throw the ball so if you miss then it's only because you guessed wrong. It's completely random hence 50/50. There's a 50% chance I'll throw it one way and a 50% chance I'll throw it the other. Because there's no way of seeing or predicting how I'm throwing then it's nothing but random guessing on your part.

Very, very good thread.

This is what MK should be.

But i have one disagreement in one thing. I don't think Soul Calibur 2 as good as VF or Tekken. And why?
Because i think Soul Calibur is more of a button smashing than a button combining move. I have a friend that only likes 2 games (SSX and GTA) i played with him Soul Calibur 2 and he beat me all the time. Because he was really faster press the buttons and he doesn't know nay combination.

In VF he won none, because VF is more complex than SC2. That's why i think SC 2, even with all that stuff, could be an odd game.

In the rest, you should write Midway and tell them how to play a 3D fight game. Maybe in MK7 they will listen to you.

Here is something I posted in another thread...

Each character should have only two fighting styles, a hand-to-hand style and a weapon style. Everyone should start out in their hand-to-hand stance and only be able to switch into their weapon style by pressing a certain button combination, like in MK4. Once a fighter presses the correct buttons, a short animation should show the fighter taking out their weapon. A fighter should also have the ability to throw their weapon, or put it back were it was. If you get hit really hard, you should have to release your weapon and go back to your hand-to-hand stance. The weapon stance should have just as much moves as the hand-to-hand stance and every stance should be very expansive. For example, lets say you own an Xbox, every stance should have a “Y” move, an “up Y” move, a “down Y” move, a “left Y” move, a “right Y” move, an “up-left Y” move, an “up-right Y” move, a “down-left Y” move, a “down-right Y” move, a “B” move, “up B” move, a “down B” move, a “left B” move, a “right B” move, an “up-left B” move, an “up-right B” move, a “down-left B” move, a “down-right B” move, an “X” move, “up X” move, a “down X” move, a “left X” move, a “right X” move, an “up-left X” move, an “up-right X” move, a “down-left X” move, a “down-right X” move, an “A” move, “up A” move, a “down A” move, a “left A” move, a “right A” move, an “up-left A” move, an “up-right A” move, a “down-left A” move, and a “down-right A” move. There should also be more throws, and some counters.

Also, I think one button should control the punches, another can control the kicks, another can control the throws and one more should control the special attacks. This would give the opportunity for some really cool combos, for example: If you choose Sub Zero and press Punch – Kick – Special - Throw, Sub Zero would punch the opponent in the stomach, then kick him into the air, then freeze him mid-air, and then grab him by the feet and slam him into the ground.

Tony: That's the best analogy I've ever seen for 50/50. I'm thinking that once Deception is picked apart, I'll be writing a gameplay primer that's very concise and very readable to anyone. (which I tried to do here not so well I supose) I'm going to do it in format of Problem, Defintion & Analogy/Example, then Technical Game Solution.

Cartmansp: Definately they need to have the basic directions mapped to something. Then, each two buttons should do something different, as well as other more special type moves with quarter-circles, half-circles, forward forwards, back forwards, etc.

Set: SC2 brings players into a relative ease to the game as it is very easy to pick up. However, any player, ANY player who tries to mash against a regular cannot win a battle, ever. How do I know? I see new players flooding the SC2 machine every semester (new students, transfers, etc.) and they are all talking about how they play it at home and bam you see them start mashing away and they get destroyed. I've myself, while nowhere near the level of the regulars at my arcade, do not lose to mashers that I play the game with at times (since I visit my friend's dorm and hella people always want to come play). The best way to handle mashers in SC2 is to be fast and to be efficient, don't take risks because you can't condition them into mindgames, just play safe.
Tin: lol, one day I'll write something that hopefully everyone can understand more easily.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: TheTinMan2005 Wrote: Eh I still do not understand all of this crap. Let's say we're playing catch. I throw a ball overhand at your head ten times and you catch it all ten times. To catch that ball you have to have the palm of your glove facing straight ahead. Think of my throwing the ball as an attack and you catching the ball as a block. So you just blocked all ten of my high attacks. Now, let's say on the eleventh throw I decide to throw the ball underhand so you have to catch it differently with your palm facing up instead of straight. You catch that one too. So you just successfully blocked a low attack with a low block. Why? Because you can see what my arm motion is and where the ball is going. My body language told you that this next throw was going downward so you knew that you had to change your catching style to accomodate. Now let's assume the laws of reality are broken and I can throw the ball overhand and underhand at the exact same speed. Very, very fast. Faster than you can see it coming. So fast that by the time I'm done with the throwing motion you've already missed the ball. How do you catch it? Do you put your glove facing out to catch an overhand throw or do you put it facing up to catch an underhand throw? There's no way for you to predict how I'll throw the ball so if you miss then it's only because you guessed wrong. It's completely random hence 50/50. There's a 50% chance I'll throw it one way and a 50% chance I'll throw it the other. Because there's no way of seeing or predicting how I'm throwing then it's nothing but random guessing on your part.

That had to be one of the best explanations I have ever seen.

Yup, good stuff, TTT.

BTW, anyone notice Crows rampage on closing threads? I love it, he's like "No!! I shall ninja strike, bringing honor and purity to these boards!!" Good stuff, indeed.

I's going to be a bit long but please guys read it. I hope you'll find it interesting even if my english is far from perfect. My thesis here is that DOA TEKKEN SC VF cannot provide a gameplay which fits well with the general atmosphere of MK, contrary to TOBAL II. I would like to prove that the best "model", the more adaped to MK, should be the last one (In France it is still considered as the deepest fighting game of all time, much more deeper than VF, and with a lot of fun.)

For those who don't know what I m talking about:
- 1= high attacks
- 2= medium attacks
- 3= law attacks
So you don't have specific buttons for punches and kicks, which is a bit wierd the first time you play it. You don't have to crouch to make a low attack. So, if you press 1 with one character it can be a kick, and if you press the same button with another one it can be a punch.
- You have at least 4 directions for each type of attack (high, medium, low). For example back + 1, high + 1, forward + 1, and bottom plus 1, and so at least four different sort of high attacks.
This has two different consequences:
- The panel of attacks can be particulary adapted to the physical caracteristics of the different characters. For example, we could have for Motaro:
back + 1 = high tail attack; back + 2 = medium tail attack and back + 3 = law tail attack, and this combo: back + 1, back + 2, back + 3 = a kind of longer spinning move with the tail hitting first hight, then medium and then law... So the characters would no more give this impression of " martial art experts dressed in mutants, in sorcerers, in gods...". The way we play them, the way they fight (their moves), and the way they are would fit perfectly well.
- Another consequence is that you cannot press a diection "move" to... move your charcater! If you simply press one of them your character will do... nothing. To move, you have to press 4 + one direction. It's wierd at the beginning but you play a real and faster 3D fighting game (which is absolutely not the case with Tekken, VF, DOA and MK5, where your freedom of movement is quite poor in fact and which do not provide a gameplay really adapted to a strategic use of projectiles)
- You could keep the system of alternate fighting style and weapons intact. For example press 5 to change of fighting style or to get your weapon So you would have at least 36 original basic moves per character and 72 max, plus the special moves and the grabbling moves.

You could also adapt TOBAL II's system to block and grab the opponent.It is the deepest system ever conceived. I'm gonna describe it and give a few reason why it would fit MK perfectly well.
- blocking:
6 = blocking high and medium
bottom + 6 = blocking low
- grabbling
When initiating forward + 6 alone, you catch your opponent :
. Then simply give a direction to push your opponent in the direction you want (this would be amazing with deathtraps)
. Or press 111 to give a serie of punches, 333 to give a serie of law kicks to knock out your opponent (it can be 131 133...)...and then beggin a deadly combo!
. Or press a direction plus 6 to make a projection. If your character is an aikido master, or if he has special caracteristics (four arms like sheeva), he can have up to 16 different projections (eight directions and the possibility to add eight more moves with back, back + 6, back/down, back/down + 6...).
Each projection projects the opponent in a specific direction (for example back = behind you, up towards the top of the screen...). The characters specialised in judo, aikido...have a kind of priority and more moves than the others in this mode ( 2 for scorpion, 12 for sheeva for sheeva, 16 for goro for example)... So they don't need to press a specific button to change of fighting style (for those characters all is done with 6 "blocking or grabbling).Their gameplay in itself reflects their particularity. Of course, those characters'projections are also stronger.
- At any moment, you can press 6 alone to "quit" the grabbling mode (you let your opponent go of).
- In each of these different phases, your opponent is not passive: he can block, reverse the priority and take the control of the grabbling mode, break the throw, get of the grabbling mode. The point is that those possibilities are much more easier when your characater is a specialist. For example it would be nearly impossible to make a projection to goro, not because of the programation of the game (which is actually silly and pointless), but because of his own abilities.

Last but not least, let's see the combo system.
- normal combos (1, 2, 3 for almost all characters and specif ones like back + 1, 2, 1 for JUGI... maybe twelve different per character)
- juggles
- special combos (they are marked with a kind of luminous aura, and you have to get a perfect rythm to perform them...the training mode gives them to you)
- special juggles, which are normal ones combined with special combos (at this moment everything goes faster). And you can perform impressive combos(35 hits)
The most important point here is that you can still keep those MK "more than fifteen hits combo" with TOBAL II's gameplay that you would have to abandon in a DOA, VF, Tekken or SCII gameplay system.

ADDENDUM (it doesn't concern the gameplay)
There is another important element to notice here: TOBAL II quest mode, which is amazing (it's a squaresoft game!):
- A quest and six dungeons. Magic items which give you more strength, more resistance... the power to weakness your ennemies...
- The way you fight influence your abilities in Vs and Arcade mode: for example, if you are more "defensive", your backdash will become faster than your forward dash, you will be more resistant...
- 310 creatures (sorcerer, dragon...). And you can catch each of them and play with it in versus and arcade mode. To be honest, only two of them are complex characters. To catch them, you have to get a special stone and throw it to them while beating them.
It's a little bit repetitive but it's a real Quest: You need to play hard, at least two or three months to finish it, because of the game's difficulty (really really to much according to me).
According to me, this is what MK Quest shoud be like, not this fucking boring ersatz of practice mode thy gave us in MKV.

So everything would be done with the same amount of buttons (6) and without any tricky combination!! It's simple, fast, a little bit srange at the beginning (during half an hour) but increase a lot the various possibilities open to the characters.

Tobal? I'm trying to remember really hard... nope don't recall hearing of that game, o well.

Just had a nice practice sesson as Kazuya against Jin on Ultra hard, you can't beat the fast pace of those matches

I really wouldn't want there to be diagonal moves like in Tekken. I find them a bit tough to pull off. In terms of move controls and such, there could be like 40 moves. It could have attacks 1, 2, 3, and 4 as well as have 1 + 2, 1 + 3, 2 + 4, and 3 + 4 with a direction for each (left, right, up, and down).

I personally like the attack 1 - 4 thing, especially since they are incorporating martial arts styles in the game. If they had it like in Tekken with LP, LK, RP, and RK, it wouldn't exactly be practical for styles like Western Boxing which pretty much use hand techniques unless Western Boxing moves are combined with moves from another style, namely one that uses kicking techniques.

Also, with the sidestepping, I can understand how in Tekken, it'd be good for evading since sidestepping is pretty much used for the purpose of evading, but to me, the sidestepping as well as the movement in MK: DA felt better and easier to manuver. I felt the walking in Tekken was really slow and I know there's a backdash thing as well as running with a double forward command, but still...

Anyway, I'll be back later with some more things. After I'm done with that, I'll get into some of the fighting styles that were in MK: DA along with some of the styles in MK: D.

Sub-Zero_7th Wrote: Also, with the sidestepping, I can understand how in Tekken, it'd be good for evading since sidestepping is pretty much used for the purpose of evading, but to me, the sidestepping as well as the movement in MK: DA felt better and easier to manuver. I felt the walking in Tekken was really slow and I know there's a backdash thing as well as running with a double forward command, but still...

Depends which Tekken you're talking about, I've always felt they got the movement spot on in Tekken 4, it suited the fluidity of fights perfectly.

Whereas DA and more than likey Deception was a bit frustrating because no matter how fast you moved at would always get to the point where once someone had attacked, and had been blocked, you were straight to blocking the opponents attack, as if you were taking turns in attacking and defending.

Only the moves with the quickest reactions times wouldn't do this, which means a lot of broken moves and characters.

In Tekken 4 it feels more like you're in complete control of your characters movements, if you were distanced from your opponent you could use a long-range attack, eg. Kazuya's + Heihachi's twin scissors move.

the only thing I thought the movement in DA was good for was getting in fast so that you could attack because of the lack of long-range moves, the only real one's being sword attacks, hand to hand styles seemed restricted to short-range.

The only game that I feel gives TOTAL control over movement is Soul Calibur II.

Thats the direction that MK7 should go in.

K, so like wtf? Does the Big D have an SM button or not? I'm guessing it does, considering the "evidence", much to my dismay. I need to know FOR SURE, though. I'm ripping shizzle for my stick and I need to know before I start drilling and making the graphic. So, do we KNOW FOR SURE that SM is in?

To me SC2 feels the most free also.

I've been playing Tekken 5 at an arcade in Chicago.

Harlem Irving Plaza Arcade.

They are play testing it there for 1 to 2 weeks.

Anyway, the movement in that game feels pretty good too.

It's more restricted than SC, but it still feels smooth.

It's like the movement in Tekken Tag, but to walk sideways you tap down,down then hold it or up, up and hold. Sort of like side walking down in VF4, but with the Tekken 4 speed.

I like the walking speed in MKDA, but they need some running and quick dash forward.

I was wondering about the SM button too.

I don't know if it's still in.

I imagine it is though, they said they hardly changed anything from the MKDA system. I guess that means the buttons too.

???

DAMN YOU EASTCOSTERS @!@#@OKRJGBH:KLWNBK:BVNKJBkrebgjnak;

"pant, pant, pant"

'lnba; kbjnef;a klnaebonj

Hope all you peeps are enjoying that T5 goodness, hopefully it'll make it west just one more time before release. Anyhwo, enjoy.

I wish there was so much importance put on Arcades in this country, not only do I have my crappy friends as competition but it looks like I won't be playing T5 in any other form then it's release in Europe sometime next year, probably

I didn't even know about the Harlem Irving Plaza arcade till this Wednesday. The actual name of the arcade is Cyberstation, it's about a 1 hour drive from home.

It's small, but they have updated games and a lot of fighting games the controllers aren't messed up either.

Too bad I haven't seen VF4 in any arcade at all.

FLSTYLE Wrote: Sub-Zero_7th Wrote: Also, with the sidestepping, I can understand how in Tekken, it'd be good for evading since sidestepping is pretty much used for the purpose of evading, but to me, the sidestepping as well as the movement in MK: DA felt better and easier to manuver. I felt the walking in Tekken was really slow and I know there's a backdash thing as well as running with a double forward command, but still... Depends which Tekken you're talking about, I've always felt they got the movement spot on in Tekken 4, it suited the fluidity of fights perfectly. Whereas DA and more than likey Deception was a bit frustrating because no matter how fast you moved at would always get to the point where once someone had attacked, and had been blocked, you were straight to blocking the opponents attack, as if you were taking turns in attacking and defending. Only the moves with the quickest reactions times wouldn't do this, which means a lot of broken moves and characters. In Tekken 4 it feels more like you're in complete control of your characters movements, if you were distanced from your opponent you could use a long-range attack, eg. Kazuya's + Heihachi's twin scissors move. the only thing I thought the movement in DA was good for was getting in fast so that you could attack because of the lack of long-range moves, the only real one's being sword attacks, hand to hand styles seemed restricted to short-range.

I've played all of the Tekken games except for Tekken 2 and out of the ones I played, I remember Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag Tournament the best, especially since I'm still borrowing them from my friend.

I played some TTT today, checking out some of the characters' movesets and practicing them out. I also played a bit of MK: DA.

To me, the unarmed moves in MK: DA seemed both close ranged and mid ranged for the most part. I did feel that there were some long ranged moves. Styles like Long Fist (whichever one that is...) and Shaolin Fist (I'm 100% sure they are referring to Shaolin Long Fist) should have long ranged attacks. The same can be said for Zha Chuan since that's also a long-ranged style from Northern China.

As for the sidestepping, I did like the way they did things...Yes, there should be some improvements in some of the aspects but generally speaking..I actually liked the sidestepping in MK; DA. As for the regular movement like moving back and forth, I think there should be more variation amongst the different styles or maybe just amongst the different characters.

I wish I had more time to further discuss other things such as the fighting styles and such, but there's always tommorrow.

Thanks, guys. The key to metaphors and analogies is taking something unfamiliar and describing it as something everyone has done or seen like playing catch. I learned that in one of my literature classes. Heh, Rutgers is good for something after all.

But I don't think we'll have so many problems with people not understanding MK's pitfalls this time around. When picking DA apart we always saw a number of people who say how good they are and how the game is fine. This time when that happens we can say load up the game and I'll show you. You'll be seeing a lot more people on these boards complaining about how abusable or useless this and that is and how they've got a 0-200 record because of it. No matter how much they want to, Boon and Co. can't ignore something when it's shared knowledge throughout the community. DA's problems may have evaded people but anyone who plays online will know Deception's problems. So I guess I'm not so jaded yet to say MK is screwed. Maybe if MK7 shows no improvement I'll get pissed.

What would you guys think if the normal crouch that's in every fighting game was taken out.

Wait Wait, don't freak out just yet.

I know the crouching is very important, but what if it was done in a more realistic fashion.


For example if you hold

Block = you stand there with your arms at chest height. Not frozen like in MK, you would flinch and then go in to like a moving stance for the block. So it looks more real.

If you hold

Block + down or down back = You stand there with your arms at waist height ready to block still moving like above.


So you don't actually bend over or kneel down.

Now so you still have the crouch, whenever your opponent throws a high attack, you will automatically do a ducking animation like Steve Fox does in Tekken 4.


This way, you still have the crouch, but it doesn't look so much like a "video game" It looks more like a real life reflex.

If your opponent throws a low attack, you will do some realistic block with your arm or leg or you will take a step back.


If this was done, you would still have the crouch work basically the same as always, but it would look more realistic.

There can be attacks that chain to the Duck animation like normal crouching attacks or while standing attacks in Tekken. But they could be special moves like for Steve's sways.

Maybe Tapping F+BLK or DF+Blk will do a duck like Steve's >+4.

Hmm maybe, I think it'll have to vary amongst the different fighting styles...

I'm going to get into the fighting styles a little bit, but for the hell of it, how about someone name a style that was in MK: DA and I'll talk about it and what improvements and such. I don't know much about all of the styles in MK: DA, but a good enough amount of them. That plus other things...