phoen Wrote: Yeah, Midway does read these boards. However, what you don't seem to understand is that you are making the same stupid thing all those Characters-obssesed persons do. Example: - Versatile: "The fighting engine sucks and should be upgraded." - Some Others: "Yeah but I think they've made a lot of different things to improve the gameplay in some other way." - Versatile: "I don't care, the fighting engine sucks; will be MKDA with interactivity." Okey, fine; if that's what you think the it's fine. You can complain all you want about it. However, you will not be sure of all you've been talking about until you play the game. Some of the things you say should be in the fighting engine I thing could transform MK into a bloody SC2(and other games) clone. I think they should try to be original with the game; a super-upgraded fighting engine has already been made in other figthing games; this level of interactivity in stages will appear in a fighting game for the first time. I guess what I try to say is that's the reason why there are various fighting games; depending on what you want in a fighting game you get: SC, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DoA or MK. That's it, a variety of games for a variety of tastes. I think each game needs to be unique in some way; and I hope companies keep them that way.

Now this is not "the truth". Sorry, but I have said this to many others before, and I will say it again. MK having parries,delays,cancels and a useful throw system will not make it a fucking SC2 clone. Why? Because all of the fighters have it PLUS something else. If this interaction you guys rave about is so dope, then what other fighting game has it..at that level alteast? None, but you know what the others fighters do have? A stable CORE engine without nearly as many bugs. I honestly think if you combine all the bugs and things wrong in every other 3D fighter you will not even come close to the amount MKDA had. I am all for interaction. It looks awesome and will make it more fun, but it wont when the core system is a duplicate of a terribly flawed game. I truly believe Ed Boon believe MKDA's core system was fine. In fact, I remember him saying so in an interview, but he is wrong. If he'd take one look at any other 3D fighting game he'd realize hes wrong. Having depth is not copying SC2 or Tekken 4 or Virtua Fighter 4 because MK already has its own flavor. It's just that the "flavor" im referring to really has nothing to do with the gameplay. Tell me one thing MKDA brought new to the table, and dont tell me different stances because that would be incorrect.

In fact, it's the glitches that really saved MKDA. If it werent for the universal track MKDA would have been a really bad game. All you would have to do is side step EVERYTHING and punish. Side step, punish, repeat. Every character could do it and thats not a good fighting game. So there's atleast one big that saved it, but its still a shame.

In summary, you say MK is fine because it has it's own thing, but what is that? What does MKDA have that all other 3D fighters didnt? Nothing..thats your answer, and I swear if someone says "konquest and the krypt" im going to commit online suicide.

Versatile, you do in fact take the words from my mouth. You are a good man.

Bleed Wrote: Drfatality Wrote: I dont understand one thing.People say they want MK to be like SC with tons of moves.But really how many of those moves do you use when your playing?I hope the fighting is like MKDA just a few more features. The more moves you have at your disposal, the larger range of options you have. Not just punching and kicking, but the more complex moves add a ton of goodness to the game. You don't need to use every move when fighting, but I don't use every move in MKDA either. You just choose your fighter, and basically use the moves that you are more comfortable with. The larger your arsenal is the better and more satisfying the fights become. Because you have that much more to work with. You end up with a lot more useful moves you can use. It feels very FREE, not stiff and limited. When you have a small arsenal like in MKDA, to me it feels almost like fighting with one arm behind my back. While I'm playing, I end up wishing I could do this or that.........But I can't. That's the difference for me anyway. I still enjoy playing the game but then I end up playing the other games a lot more often because of that FREEDOM I enjoy so much. The other games aren't perfect either obviously, but they feel closer to it IMO. It would take longer to make the game like that, but I wouldn't mind waiting. As long as it gets done, I'm all for it.

Now I see what you people mean.We'll have to see what MKD brings.Every MK was a big update fighting wise IMO.MKD is going to be big.

Yeah! A smart topic! The worst part though is poeple are still going to bitch and argue and pull out ideas from their ass and say it's true. It's unstoppable, but many wish it was. Goddamn idiots...

What bugs are you refering to Versatile? Just because you don't like something in the fighting engine doesn't make it a bug.

SaibotRuler Wrote: What bugs are you refering to Versatile? Just because you don't like something in the fighting engine doesn't make it a bug.

Agreed. MK: DA works and so will MK6

Frost4584 Wrote: SaibotRuler Wrote: What bugs are you refering to Versatile? Just because you don't like something in the fighting engine doesn't make it a bug. Agreed. MK: DA works and so will MK6

Agreed.

Sadly, over my time here I have seen that many of the people who post here are not the type of players who really PLAY a game to its limits. In fact, most of what verstile is wring about is true. MKDA was broken in more ways that one. On both shallow and deep levels of play.

Things like reversals where it completly broke characters. Impales just encouraged run away game and turtling. Large Ranges in gabs and priority in grappling styles. Can you imagine if that game were online? It would get NO PLAY due to its shallowness and the fact that it was hella broken. Only scrubs would play.

Those are a FEW of the things that were broken in MKDA.

SaibotRuler Wrote: What bugs are you refering to Versatile? Just because you don't like something in the fighting engine doesn't make it a bug.

SaibotRuler Wrote: Bleed, you have to realize that some things just can't be done on this wave of Next-Gen systems. I want all that stuff too, but I also know that in the Krypt in DA they wanted to have a krypt keeper go around and open the lids of the koffins you choose but they couldn't because the systems wouldn't allow it...not even on the Xbox! You have to take all of this into consideration. One disk can only handle so much. I said this in another thread, I really think the MK Team is pushing these systems to the limit. Think about it, Deception will feature bigger stages than any other fighting game out today. That stuff, combined with all the other interactivities will take up a lot of space. Not to mention the Konquest mode...which from what I've read is like a game of its own. And they have improved on the fighting..Boon even said so. It's faster and everything, plus don't you think there's some things they're keeping secret. Just because we know all this stuff about Deception now doesn't mean it's as good as it gets. There may be a lot of improvements in the fighting system that we don't know about yet, don't you think? I don't see how you people can judge Deception on its fighting system when you haven't truly seen a damn thing but a few quick shots!!!! Not to mention they're supposed to be adding torn clothing. The graphics have improved...you people really need to give the MK Team their due respect. They've worked their asses off to give us this, and all you people can do is complain just because it's not a MK version of Soul Caliber 2!! I'm glad as hell it's not, that's what makes MK unique and original. All the other fighting games have the same way to kick and punch, but in DA there's 3 different ways. Don't be blinded by your wants, I have a feeling that Deception will blow us all away. A lot of you will be regreting what you say when you get the game and it's better than what you expected. I'll repeat myself...WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN ENOUGH IN-GAME FIGHTING TO ACCURATELY JUDGE DECEPTION!!!!!!!! SO STOP ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT THE GAME.

This is the best response in this thread...

Bleed Wrote: We are talking about Reversals, frame sensitive moves, parries, multiple throws, attacking while facing away, attacking while crouched, throw escapes, Multi part throws on and on and on............ Pretty much all this stuff is missing. That is the problem. The MK team is trying to beat games like Virtua Fighter and Soul Caliber, but it seems like they are trying to over power them with extras, stage interaction which is good, and extra games. It seems like they are afraid to tackle the other games on their own turf. I'm sure they can do it, but with the time constraints it's hard. Then again, if time is the problem, then why are they spending so much time on the extras, instead of the most important part of the game. Frankly, I'm baffled. I'm still hoping though.

What I seem to get is that the fatcats at Midway wanted DA on the shelves because MK had been dead for five years. With it's success from a financial perspective, I can't imagine them saying to the MK team, "We don't care if you're not ready. Whether the game is good or not we want it on the shelves." At this point they should understand the game will sell because it's MK. They should also understand it will sell more if it's good. I can't imagine any businessman seeing profit in releasing the game prematurely at this point. Besides, if they were working on the game since DA's release, two years is enough time to get a good engine up and running. So, yeah, if MK:D lacks anything it can only be assumed that the designers just didn't want it in or didn't understand why it should be in rather than not having the time or money.

My biggest worry is not that MK:D will be the same as MK:DA. I believe it will be better. My worry is that it being better than DA won't be saying much. "OK GUYS! COMBOS ARE NO LONGER GUARANTEED! WHOOPIE!" "Uh? What about the grapple system?" "Well...We can...FIX THAT IN THE NEXT GAME! YEAH!"

They don't have the luxury of taking baby steps which they seem to be doing. With the exception of a handful of special moves, DA was built from scratch. Built from scratch during a time that all the other fighters are well in the swing of things. Tekken 2 added a bit, Tekken 3 added more, etc. MK lost five years of that. They have to add it all at once now. At this rate, by the time MK reaches Tekken 4 status, Tekken 7 will be beyond that. This is a figurative analysis of course but it's just to prove the point that I'm worried that even though they can make the improvements they won't do it fast enough. And when I say fast enough I mean by MK:D's release.

Maybe they are afraid to tackle the other games on their own turf. But you know what? Lots of people say things like "MK never has been good and has no potential to be anything but pure crap on the bottom of Kazuya's shoe." Newsflash, nobody says that about any other game. Not even KOF and DOA, both of which get a lot of flack, aren't treated like many players treat MK. Now, I think they're dead wrong to brush off any chance of improvement. But something must have caused them to reach that conclusion in the first place. You say Tekken sucks you're a troll. You say MK sucks you won't be treated very poorly. Think about it. I want to actually live to see the time that the MK haters are the trolls.

Also, to anyone who thinks this discussion is pointless until we play the game because we don't know what changed, I'd like to say that's some faulty logic. Hindsight is 20/20 because it's already too damn late. We could bitch and moan about DA's shoddy throw system, Soul Calibur II's G-Step, and Elecman's weapon glitch in Megaman all day and it won't change a thing about those games. But you know what? Had they been discussed during development they wouldn't be in the final product.

Frost4584 Wrote: SaibotRuler Wrote: What bugs are you refering to Versatile? Just because you don't like something in the fighting engine doesn't make it a bug. Agreed. MK: DA works and so will MK6

Oh brother let me edit this before I get flamed or skulled. I have no right to say you are a scrub or dumb, so I will not, but I will say if you honestly believe MKDA is fine the way it is then you HAVE to lack knowledge of what a fighting game should be.

To list what's wrong with DA BUG wise(not just what I don't like, but bug wise) would take quiet some time..if you really want me to I will.

I would also like to say thanks to the people who support what I have to say and aren't ignorant towards the facts. You guys are the reason I still come around this board...makes me believe there's still hope.

You know it's funny, I once was blinded. I thought MKDA was fine just like you guys, but I now see the light, and I understand clearly what all my other fighting game pals were talking about. MKDA..*sigh*..just ins't a good game. I love for what it is, but for me to come here and say I think it's a good game would be a lie. I am just frustrated because I WANT MKD to be a good game. I don't want this series to be made fun of anymore and I want to say im one of the top players at a game that is not shallow and literally is retarded(retarded means defective..so you get what i mean).

You know what really proves that MK:DA's engine wasn't all that good? There's no counter arguement. Let me explain. If I say Charles Manson is a good man there will be a counter arguement. That counter will be that Manson is a psychopath. In that kind of situation the counter arguement would be right. But if I say that water is good for you, how many people are going to debate me? It's understood that water is good for you. Something similar is happening here. Versatile is saying that Deception needs basic fighting game elements in order to be good. Nobody, even those saying he's wrong, is making the claim that those elements would actually make the game worse. To say that would be like saying water is bad for you. So why fight him on it? I don't care if someone plays MK because they love the story, I don't care if they play because of Smoke, I don't care if they play because they think it improves their golf game. Nobody is going to stop playing MK because combos stop being guaranteed, throws stop being blockable and unduckable, etc. So why isn't it right to say that MK:D's engine needs a lot of work? Would it make the game any worse? Would you rather not be able to duck throws? Would you rather throws being useless because they're higher risk than other moves and yet designed to beat defense but are blockable anyway? Would you stop playing MK? MK has nothing to lose from changing the engine. Since nobody is saying that the changes would be for the worse than what the hell? Go for it.

Versatile, I agree with you.

At first, I liked MK:DA, I liked the new combo system, the style branches and enjoyed playing.

However, after a while, I started playing MK:DA more professionally and I realised it was flawed. It was flawed all the time, but now it was all the more obvious.

Try practising with every MK character and there will always be differences. Sometimes, they aren't that big, but there is a big difference between (for instance) Scorpion and Cyrax.

The problem is balance. Now, if they would add more depth to MK, they would also have to equalize the characters more. This should solve a lot of the problems imo. However, as someone already said in this thread, if they would give us more moves to work with, you've got more freedom. That way, there are more possibilities to juggle or create your own combo's.

The MK team should also thoroughly test it's own engine, search for glitches and abuses (e.g: Pi Gua Terror). That would help a lot.

So what I'm trying to say is, that MKD needs more depth in terms of gameplay. I like those interactive arenas, the weapons, konquest, but we have to remember that MK is still a beat'em-up. Therefore it needs a solid fighting engine.

Just because the core fighting system remains relatively unchanged doesn't mean that it won't be a great game.

A perfect example would be the differences between MK 1 and 2. MK2 offered faster gameplay, better gfx, more fatalities, more characters, stage fatalities, etc. The fighting system remained unchanged though and despite that fact, MK2 is considered by many to be the best game of the series thus far.

This formula of adding tons of new content without really changing the gameplay (fighting system, specifically) has worked for Midway in the past, and I have no doubt that it will work in this case too.

Just as MK2 was a vast improvement over MK1, Deception will be a vast improvement over Deadly Alliance.

Versatile. Many of the things you said were true, but if MKDA wasn't a good game this board never existed. And as people are look forward to see how the knew MK game looks like is a better way to say that MK is well anda alive. Even you want a better MKD with those 'BUGS' removed and so do we.

So far, so good. So what's the problem? We want a MK with the engine of Tekken, SC or Virtua Fighter? I think we all agree with the 'No' for the answer.

As you know we have 6/7 months left for the new MKD to come out. We are assuming that if they using a lot of the work made with DA this game would be like DA. I hope so not, or not entierly. I want those 'BUGS' off the game but i want a game with the feeling of MK not with the Feeling of other game. When this happens MK ends its story for good.

I like to say that altough i have all the fighting games on 3D availabe, i like most to play 'seriously' in Virtua Fighter (as he is the Best) with its huge amount of moves and gameplay and i like to play SC as it's technically superb.

But i also like to play MK as its the game whit the charisma, the thing you cannot explain.It's MK.

Ok. End of story. Would you like MK a better game? WE ALL want that too.

I think we should give the guys at MIDWAY work hard for the people and if they fail they try hard to please us. This is my opinion.

We begged for returning characters, we'll have it. We begged for bigger arenas, you have it. We ask for old school moves, it probably feature this moves. We begged for stage fatalities and death traps we will reward by that. WE begged for more fatalities, we'll have it. We begged for a great konquest mode, we will have it. We begged for a costoum character we will have it. We beeged for online play, we'll have it. We begged for more speed, combos, reversals and others, we will have it.
So we begged for a better core and gameplay why they shouldn't give it, have hope. Because we want a better game. Better, bigger than DA.

CVS2 is not broken as hell. RC actually balances the game out more. CVS is actually one of my favorite fighters besides super turbo.

Versatile Wrote: You know it's funny, I once was blinded. I thought MKDA was fine just like you guys, but I now see the light, and I understand clearly what all my other fighting game pals were talking about. MKDA..*sigh*..just ins't a good game. I love for what it is, but for me to come here and say I think it's a good game would be a lie. I am just frustrated because I WANT MKD to be a good game. I don't want this series to be made fun of anymore and I want to say im one of the top players at a game that is not shallow and literally is retarded(retarded means defective..so you get what i mean).

May the force be stong with-in you, yes indeed.

When all is said and done the simple reality is this: the MAJORITY of MK fans, the MAJORITY of peeps who buy MK or simply just play MK in general, are not interested in a hardcore, deep fighter. Some may not want one, some may be nuetral, some may not even know WTF makes a deep fighter. Hell, the mass majority don't even come here. It's that simple. Out of all the peeps who bought DA, or any MK, do you think that the first thought that went through their head was "I wonder if I can buffer a guaranteed launcher off a guard cancel?" Hardly.

Midway is making a game for the majority of the players who already play MK. They are making a game for the already large fanbase. When a company wants to expand that fan base, they need to take chances, which in turn creates risk. If, infact, MKD or any future MK were to actually apply a measurable amount of depth, they would be taking the risk of loosing some of that fanbase; but how many new fans would they bring in?

It's a difficult...rather uncertain question to answer. Because of that uncertainty, and seeing how the gaming industry is often very timid and even docile as with new ideas, it's probably a risk Midway is not willing to take. It's a safe bet to simply make shit look pretty, build upon the story and aura of MK, and please the majority. At the end of the month, taking home that nice fat check to pay bllls, send their child to college with and buy their woman shit as to continue getting some lovin'.

The problem that I see is that there isn't any reason why they can't have "all that is MK" along with a deeper sense of play. Perhaps it comes back to risk or understanding the mechanics of a deeper fighter. I don't know. All I know is that MKD looks to be turning into a rather great looking game, but not a great fighting game. This may not be the most educated of assumptions, but is an experienced one.

BTW, TonyTT, loving the posts. Food for the soul, big man, food for the soul.

Peace and love ya'll.

Right back at you, Saty. As for what you said about the majority of MK players not being interested in depth, that pretty much can define the majority of players of any game which is unfortunately why MK seems to be fine on the surface. The average player is just looking for some recreation. Take RPGs for example. There's two types of players. The kind who go through the story at a leisurely pace not really caring about everything there is and the type who max out all the characters, find every item, and run the game's clock to 99:99:99. The same can apply to fighting games. Of all the players who bought Tekken 4, only a very limited percentage travel the country to play in tournaments. So because MK sold 3 million units, it's misleading to think that means it's a good game. It's not the worst game in the world. Let me make that clear. But it's because such a small percentage of the buyers actually bring up these concerns that they aren't listened to as often.

I don't know why so many people hated MK:DA. I thought it was the best one. They reinvented the series for all of you fans. Good Fatalities(most of them at least), Fighting styles, weapons, etc. It was an excellent game. It was my favorite MK, with MK2 in close second. Give the new MK a chance before you guys even play it. Jesus Christ...

The people who hate DA do so because of many reasons. I'll list a few.

- Guaranteed combos off first hit.
- Juggle system with flawed physics engine.
- Blockable throws.
- Unduckable throws.
- Very simple throw commands.
- No throw breaks.
- No wakeup game.
- Easily abusable infinites. (North American version anyway.)
- Different styles that control basically the same.
- No attacks that take advantage of movement properties.

There you have ten reasons off the top of my head why many people dislike the game. There's more but those are the most basic. This isn't to say the game doesn't have it's fans or even that I don't enjoy playing it. It just means that MK:D is in danger of repeating some or all of those mistakes. I'll buy the game. I'll like playing it. But I won't like seeing it smeared on because it doesn't employ the basics of 3d fighting games. Having a decent throw system for example doesn't mean copying another game like Tekken. You don't have to design the system to work exactly the same. As long as the concept (key word here) is there. It's better to discuss what could possibly go wrong with MK:D rather than waiting to play it and say "Oh, crap. Midway reads these boards. We should have talked about this BEFORE it was too late." I'm not resigned to the idea that MK:D will suck. I just don't like to count my chickens safe than sorry. Wait a minute...


This is a little off topic but talking about the improvements that should be made, does anybody know if RayRokka got on the MK team? I know Psi-Ops isn't totally finished yet but any word on his current situation?

Lets see what I can add onto that least.

- jabs hit on the way down.
- gameplay is slow and stiff
- sidestepping is useless due to universal track
- back dash cancel makes for broken characters
- no frame data
- pointless stances
- pointless low attacks that do 2% damage
- pointless specials that lack variety
- bad hit detection
- moves has different hit properties depending on position

theres so many more little things I can add..lol. I hope Ed Boon is reading this.

The two cats above me just owned this thread hard. The rest of you suspected scrubs need to read what they listed and play the damn game again.

As for cVs2: That game without roll cancel is horrid agreed, but RC sould not even be in it in the first place.

And it's still ass. Better than SNK vs cap though. If you want a good 2D fighter play the greatest of all time: Street fighter 3: 3rd strike.


These developers need to test their shit out more.

scoot-magee Wrote: CVS2 is not broken as hell. RC actually balances the game out more. CVS is actually one of my favorite fighters besides super turbo.

Dude, i understand where you are coming from. But when i see names like Tanya, Reiko and Bo Rai Cho yet no Kano, Raiden, Cage or Shang Tsung, there is defintely something to bitch about. Nuff said.