I agree with you about Scorp and Subby being good character
But I REALLY disagree about them being overated.
And I disagree about them not being in a MK game.
Scorpion- A hellspawned Ninja spectre who always does unpridictable things for revenge. His moves are good in all games, he is very speedy and powerful. Originally a good man from Japan (hey that rhimes) with a family.
*Notes*
-In MK1 Scorpion comes as a bad guy under Shang's control, but then break out of it and become hiself, which is a good person.
-In MK2 he wanted to put "The Great Assassin" Sub-Zero in his place, which was doing a good deed
-In UMK3 I forgot
-In MK4 he returns as a bad guy (like in MK1) to avenge his clan and family
-In MK:DA he returns as a neutral. He is still bad, but he is still doing the right thing by avenging his clan and family
-What he'll do next is 100% unpredictable
-He has to continue the story
Sub-Zero- Always had the freezing ability. Stale but cool moves. Apart of a clan called Lin Kuei.
-"The great Assassin" Chinese Ninja Sub-Zero is obviously a bad guy in MK1 AND under Shang's control. Got killed by Scorpion.
-In MK2 there was the appearance of the Sub-Zero we know today. This Sub-Zero came from U.S.A (HOLLA!) He is the younger brother of the original one. He wanted to avenge his brothers death (even though he knew he was a bad guy)
-In MK3 he got banned from the Lin Kuei for his selfless actions. Two Lin Kuei Robots were after him. He returned as a regular fighter instead of a Ninja.
-In MKM, I really don't know the story behind it but I could tell that it was important.
-In MK4 He was disbanned and he was slowly turning the Lin Kuei into good people. To honor his family he wore his brother's Ninja costume.
-In MKDA He came as the Lin Kuei grandmaster. He has aged. And he tries to guid his new trainee Frost, until some stuff happened.
What I'm tring to say is these two are very improtant to the MK series. It wouldn't hurt if they are in the future games these guys are legends.

I guess i will put my two cents in on this. Although scorpion and subzero are two of my all time favorite fighters I must agree with queve they are awesome in every aspect but i think it would be good to have them set out for at least one game. ya know the saying abcents makes the heart grow fonder. i think if were no shows for at least one game thier stories could greatly evolve but i would never ever ever ever ever do away with them completely. not to mention it make the ability to use them again a much better feeling.

I know i didnt read the WHOLE thread, but I did read ur first message Queve and I kinda agree with the scorpion part, but I dont understand why you want subby out. I mean, hes had a evolving storyline, hes a natural fan favorite, and he looks the most different out of any of the returning characters. Why do you want him out?

Queve, you are a godsend to this board. Excellent topic. Something I was thinking about, myself.
Now then, are they overrated? Of course, all a matter of personal opinion. They do have their legions and legions of fans...but do they deserve them?
It is my belief that Sub-Zero does. As has been stated in this thread, he has gone through the most change out of any of the MK characters. From an assassin to a grandmaster, in a nutshell. He is to MK as Ryu is to Street Fighter, even if he wasn't intended to be the original hero. But that's irrelevant. He now is.
I do believe that the series can stand to go at least one game without him, at least in a playable form. He could be a strong background character, possibly, in the event of the absence of any deity-type characters, the new advisor to earth's champions (notice how I did not say God. That's going too far...but I digress). He's accomplished a great deal, for himself, for earthrealm, and especially for the Lin Kuei. All he really needs to do is overcome the Tekunin, and resolve whatever issues he may have with Smoke. Then...well, I wouldn't say that he should retire from the MK world...but he can afford to remain in the background for a bit. We'll forgive him. If it's a question of exposure, Sub-Zero has been in every single MK game created, with the exception of Special Forces, in one form or another. Is he overrated? In my opinon, no. He's earned his fanbase. It wouldn't hurt us to let the man have a five-day vacation in Honolulu, or something.
Scorpion, on the other hand...Ok, I'm not saying he's done nothing, far from it. He's avenged his own murder, and now is trying hard to avenge the death of his family and clan. But...I'm getting kinda sick of it. Vengeance has been his motiev for every game, minus MK3, where he just sorta worked for Kahn (or wandered around, depending on your choice of plotline), with lack of anything better to do.
Being dead and all, and having an extinct clan, there's plenty of issues here that could be explored. What's the status on forgiveness for damned souls in the MK world? We don't know. Is it possible for the gods to give him a reprieve for some heroic deed he might inadvertently accomplish? Reincarnation? Restoration of his earthly body? There are a myriad of possibilities.
And what about the Shirai Ryu, his clan? I hate to say it, but if the extinct Raptors could also have Chameleon as a survivor, and the Black Dragon have Jarek and Kira as the last of their kind, why don't we see a survivor of the Shirai Ryu? A completely new character for Scorpion to interact with, for better or for worse? We know almost nothing about the Shirai. Let's get educated!
Another thing; Does scorpion even remember his name, Hanzo Hasashi? if not, why doesn't something happen to trigger that memory? That could lead down many interesting paths.
En resume, is Scorpion overrated? I think so, albeit only slightly. He's a strong character with mountains of potential. Boon & co. just need to focus on that, which is why I think he deserves to be an at least one more game, where he goes through something major, until we can afford to have an MK game without him.
On the surface, it may seem absurd for me to say that the overrated one of the two needs more exposure. But I think Scorpion just needs a chance to prove he's worthy of his praise. Sub-Zero already has.
Now, to the matter of sales. Simply put, MK3, despite being a game with many flaws, still sold very well, and was popular in arcades for a time, even before UMK3 came out, and I didn't see Scorpion there. I don't believe that they're both necessary for an MK game to be a success. But it would be wrong to say that they are not a contributing factor. I say, having a game with only one present is acceptable. Losing both would raise too many qustions, and is a risk I'm sure Midway's unwilling to take.

Sub-Zero is definately not overated. His story is constantly evolving, and tries not to be convoluted.
Scorpion however, is a little overated. He's had the same thoughts of vengance since MK1. I think Shadaloo has some excellent thoughts on how to shake up his story. And here is my idea. In his MK1 ending, it says that after killing Sub-Zero, he lost all memories of his earthly life, except that he had a wife and son. Maybe they could put him on a quest to find himself, so to speak.

Godzilla Wrote: Sub-Zero is definately not overated. His story is constantly evolving, and tries not to be convoluted. Scorpion however, is a little overated. He's had the same thoughts of vengance since MK1. I think Shadaloo has some excellent thoughts on how to shake up his story. And here is my idea. In his MK1 ending, it says that after killing Sub-Zero, he lost all memories of his earthly life, except that he had a wife and son. Maybe they could put him on a quest to find himself, so to speak.

Agreed.

How many times does the game have to make it clear? Scorpion is convinced that the younger Sub-Zero is actually the older Sub-Zero and he still thinks that. His ending in MK2 never happened. MKDA says that Scorpion thought Sub-Zero killed his family ever since MKM: SZ and hasn't thought differently until the end of MK4.
In MK3, he escaped to try to kill Sub-Zero again. Sub-Zero beat him up again, and Scorpion was sent back to the Netherealm.
Scorpion NEVER found out that the young Sub-Zero wasn't the one that killed him. He thought they were one and the same and he still thinks that even after finding out the truth. We have yet to see any canon (maybe in Deception) that says anything about Scorpion's ending in MK2 being true, but so far it's like this:
MKM: SZ - Scorpion is sent by Quan-Chi to get the Map of Elements. THere, he meets Sub-Zero who is also after the map. They fight, and SUb-Zero wins and kills him. His soul goes to the Netherealm where he is tortured like all souls, and he also finds out that while dead, his family was murdered. He is convinced it was Sub-Zero (in actuality, it was Quan-Chi, who murdered his family and the rest of his clan in return for Sub-Zero getting the map). Later on, he finds that Sub-Zero is captured and sent to Prison of Souls in his cell. There, he faces his murderer and they fight once more. Unfortunately, Sub-Zero defeats him once more and escapes the prison. Scorpion's vengeance would have to wait.
MK1 - Scorpion has been fiending for revenge on Sub-Zero for the past 10 years. Finally, the Netherealm superiors (maybe Shinnok? who knows?) offer him a deal: he can go to Earthrealm and claim his vengeance on Sub-Zero but in return he must forget his family. Scorpion agrees and is allowed to surface to the Earth and he follows Sub-Zero onto a ship that goes to an island where the Mortal Kombat tournament is being held. Scorpion enters as it is the only way to face Sub-Zero, and he ends up facing him. This time, it is Scorpion who is victorious and he kills Sub-Zero, getting vengeance for his own murder (but not for his family's, unbeknownst to him).
MK2 - A year later, Scorpion is still in the Netherealm, but he gets distressing news: Sub-Zero is still alive? The Netherealm allows him once more to climb back up and get his revenge. He follows the ninja to Outworld to compete in the second Mortal Kombat tournament. He soon faces Sub-Zero again, but this time he loses. Scorpion is forced back into the Netherealm.
MK3 - Two years later, Shao Kahn's invasion is stretching across the realms and he has targeted the Netherealm. But Shinnok (maybe?) was prepared for this and he fought back and managed to destroy SHao Kahn's forces from taking the souls of his realm. Scorpion used the war to escape from the Netherealm to wander the Earthrealm freely. He once again targeted Sub-Zero, hungry as ever for his revenge, not knowing it's all in vain. Eventually, Scorpion found him and they fought, but Sub-Zero beat him back once more. Scorpion was forced back into the Netherealm.
MK4 - two more years later, Shinnok and the Army of Darkness in the Netherealm were getting ready to take over the realms. Scorpion's old confidante Quan-Chi comes to him and asks for an ask: to join Shinnok. In return, Shinnok would grant Scorpion his life back. Scorpion agreed, but also used the opportunity to claim his revenge on Sub-Zero. Before he became human once more, he would eradicate the assassin once and for all! So, he joined SHinnok's army and eventually came face to face with Sub-Zero. THey fought, and this time it was Scorpion who emerged victorious! Before Scorpion could kill him, Sub-Zero told him that he didn't murder his family. Quan-Chi then appeared and told Scorpion it was he who had done it, and that he merely used Scorpion the whole time. He tried to send him back to the NEtherealm, but Scorpion went into a rage and dragged Quan-Chi back with him....
MKDA - For the past 5 years, Scorpion had been torturing Quan-Chi to no end. Continually administering to him beatings and beatings, with no end. However, Quan-Chi got two Oni (Moloch and Drahmin) to protect him from him. They managed to hold him back while Quan-Chi made his escape, but Scorpion ran after him and escaped from the NEtherealm through the portal that Quan-Chi opened with the amulet. He emerged in OUtworld, and began his search for Quan-Chi....
If Scorp's ending is true, he found his way into Shang Tsung's Fortress while looking for Quan-Chi and he found Moloch and Drahmin in there (who were looking to off Quan-Chi, and were now allied with Shang Tsung). He fought them both, and eventually they overpowered him and tossed him into the soulnado, where he suffered a second death...
but then what's he doing in MKD? Who knows?

I hope Scorpion and Sub Zero are in all of the MK games from now on.They are signature characters and they are the most popular MK characters in the series.

PsychoFight Wrote: Scorpion is convinced that the younger Sub-Zero is actually the older Sub-Zero and he still thinks that. In MK3, he escaped to try to kill Sub-Zero again. Sub-Zero beat him up again, and Scorpion was sent back to the Netherealm.

Sorry, man. Both of these statements are false according to the MK3 and UMK3 storyline. Taken straight from gamefaqs:
Shao Kahn tried to steal the souls of the
Netherealm. While it didn't work, it did give Scorpion the ability to leave the forsaken realm. Scorpion wandered alone as a wild card in the
war until the day he came across Shao Kahn. Kahn offered him a spot in his forces with the promise of the ability to keep him out of the Netherealm. Scorpion agreed. But as he was supposed to attack some of Earthrealm's warriors, he was shocked to see a red scar over one's eye. It was Sub-Zero. Scorpion remembered his vow and turned on the emperor.
When MK4 was released, they then changed the story and pretended it never happened, which wasn't wise in my opinion. Did Tobias really believe no one was going to notice?

i KNOW you did not just say that.....if scorpion is tossed out a game im gonna be mad *crosses arm*

gamefaqs is not a reliable source for the story....give me the link where it says that.

PsychoFight Wrote: gamefaqs is not a reliable source for the story....give me the link where it says that.

Alright, but it may take some time to find the exact excerpt of the UMK3 bio.
But for the record, Gamefaqs is usually pretty accurate.

GameFaqs rocks.
And another thing, They put Sub-Zero and Scorpion in all the games because they were some of the first characters introduced. Another reason they should be in it again is because they are some of the most requested players to be in the game.

Well when I bought the Gold game it came with this book with bios an moves an such thats were
I read it.I still have the book.But believe what you want thats cool.I believe he was killed just like it said.Makes alot of sense cause his body was held together by huge staples it fit.So thats what I read an thats what I believed an probably always will.Just because you havent read it or heard of it dosent men its not true.It's cool.Long Live Johnny Cage.

XiahouDun84 Wrote: luckylooser34 Wrote: Well if read the book that came with MK gold thats what they wrote for his story.They said "In the final battle against Earths warriors,Baraka was split in half by Kung Laos razor-edged hat. Then Shinnok rises up form the darkness of the Netherealm an seeks out the former outworld warrior to assist him in his battle against Raidens forces.So Shinnok takes over his dead soul an Shinnok grants him life once again this time to fight by his side.This is how they brung him back for MK Gold.Thats what was wrote.Thats why in MK Gold he had staples holding his body together.Kung Lao killed him. font> Few problems with this: I have never once heard of any books coming with MK Gold. I've looked at dozens of MK story timelines and FAQs and I've never once heard of Kung Lao slicing Baraka in half anywhere. And even if there is a book, that doesn't mean it's canon. There are lots of Mortal Kombat books. Less than half of them are canon. And finally, this theory contradicts what the game clearly says. I believe the games before I believe any books.

Personally, I am not a very big scorpion or sub-zero fan. So if these guys were to sit out of a game, it wouldn't make much a difference to me. But they are some of the more popular (if not the most popular characters) in the game, hencean MK without them would be weird.
I am a huge Liu Kang fan, and was a little disappointed that he never made it to MKDA. But no, that didn't syop me from playing the game. But I did feel that I would have had more fun if Kang was in there (am so glad he's coming back)!
My point is, yeah....MK could do without these fighters....but it just wouldn't feel the same. I think they should be hidden challengers in some games. That would be cool.

scorp and sub should be mandatory for any new mk. they are the 2 that made mk1 so damn cool (along with reptile) and continue to do so. if some people dont like em and whine cuz their fave didnt make it to mk6, boo hoo; dont choose sub or scorp, then. i think people just gotta accept the facct the ninjas always have been cool and always will be. they could call mk7 mortal kombat: nothin' but ninjas and i would dance a jig of glee.

humulis Wrote: scorp and sub should be mandatory for any new mk. they are the 2 that made mk1 so damn cool and continue to do so. if some people dont like em and whine cuz their fave didnt make it to mk6, boo hoo; dont choose sub or scorp, then.

That's exactly what I was gonna say.
Anyways,I agree with humulis.Sub-Zero and Scorpion deserve to be in EVERY MK from now on.Taking Subby and Scorpion out of a Mortal Kombat game would be like taking Ken and Ryu out of a Street Fighter game.

yes!!! thank you. talk about characters never changing looks and story plots! (minus sub's new shredder look i have to compliment that) i was bored of them so long ago, and i'm happy to see people actually agree with me, cause i said this like three years ago and got pooed on somin fierce!

i just can't c a MK game without Scorpion and Sub-Zero bein main characters. Basically they r the best fighters and ne "B-Listers" like Sonja would neva b able 2 carry the whole MK storyline on their shoulders. Kabal defeated Shao Kahn? Jax defeated Shinnok? Sonja defeated the Deadly Alliance? Bo'Rai Cho defeated the Dragon King?
None of these sound right with me, the fact is no matter how repetitive their stories become (not in Sub-Zero's case) they r needed in the MK universe.
Not only because general beat em up gamers would rate a MK game less without Scorpion and Sub-Zero resultin in less sales but u can't take them out now until they have done wot they have set out 2 do. In Scorpion's case until Quan Chi is dead he'll be in the MK games.
Hope u realise Scorpion can't b brought bk like Liu kang has bin once he's gone thats it.
Besides does no1 remember the sayin about fixin things that aren't broken.

NO FRIGGIN' WAY!!!!!!!
I almost didn't accept my friend's MK3 in February but Sub-Zero had me change my mind.
They NEED to stay because they've been icons since the very beginning and it won't be as good.

Sub-Zero and Scorpion never fought each other in the time of MK3/UMK3/MKT. Now...I'm not sure if Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending occured...but from what it says..it does make sense..
Basically what happens is that Scorpion joins Shao Kahn's side and Shao Kahn orders Scorpion to help him destroy the Earthrealm fighters. However, Scorpion learns that Sub-Zero is one of the Earthrealm fighters. Now...the ending goes on to say something about Scorpion turning against Shao Kahn but I think what really happens is that he simply leaves and heads back to the Netherrealm.
As for the MK4 thing, Quan Chi lied to Scorpion, telling him that Sub-Zero is the murderer of his family and clan. As for Scorpion's bio in MK: DA with the whole many years thing, well..there was like a 5 year period during and between the storylines in MK4/MKG and MK: DA.

Sorry, but I have disagree with anyone that says Subby and Scorp are overrated and should stay out of any MK game. By no means is Sub-Zero overrated. Think about it, his story is evolving so lovely. Why would you want to cut him out when he's reaching the climax of his being. Besides, I persoal opinion, MK wouldn't be the same without these two characters. As for scorpion, all he needs is a good story overhaul and bam he's back too. So I whole heartly disagree with ya who say that they should be pushed aside.

I have to disagree, Scorpion and Subzero are not overrated. I bet there are more Smoke, Noob and Ermac fans out there than there are Subzero and Scorpion fans. All you hear is "I want smoke! smoke! smoke!"
Scorpion and Subzero are the icons of Mortal Kombat. You just can't leave them out, that's a very stupid idea. Plus it would damage sales like crazy. Scorp and Sub should be in every MK game in the future until the series ends.

I may not use them tons,but MK would not be the same if they were not in there.SUB and SCORP are MK IMO.

XiahouDun84 Wrote: I don't think Scorpion or Sub-Zero are overrated. I don't like to say it's because they have the most fans because how the hell do I know for sure. When I came here, I wa sshocked to discover so many people liked Sonya because I've yet to meet a Sonya fan in person. However, I say Scorpion and Sub-Zeor are MK's franchise players becuase you can ask someone who isn't a major MK fan to name any charcater and I bet 9 times out of 10 they'll either say Scorpion or Sub-Zero. When MK came out, they were the ones everyone flocked too and they were the ones everyone talked about. Put it to you this way: Back when it came out, I heard about Scorpion before I heard about Mortal Kombat. At this point it isn't that Scorpion's story is "boring" it's that it was brought back for needlessly. Scorpion's revenge angle was settled at the end of MK2. When he came back in MK3 he wasn't out for revenge. He was on no one's side until he decided to protect Sub-Zero. Unfortunatly, in MK4 they decided to resurrect Scorpion's revenge story against Sub-Zero at the expense of credability and logic. At the end of MK4 his focus shifts from Sub-Zero to Quan Chi however, lightning does not strike in the same place twice. Scorpion is my favorite charcater and I'd be pissed if he was taken out or drastically changed, however, even I'll admit he needs to do something other than revenge. You'd think since he's a nuetral character with no loyalties and he's no longer bound to the Netherealm, they could do something interesting with him. Let's hope that MK: Deception accomplishes that. One problem I have is the complaint that Scorpion never changes and that his spear move is played out and he should drop it. Meanwhile I see the same people who say this complain about Sonya losing her leg grab and she NEEDS it back. As a Scorpion fan, I like his spear move because it's his trademark and if you don't like Scorpion's moves, don't play as him. Problem solved. Another problem I have is Scorpion haters saying "he always fails in his mission." Let's recap: MK1: Kill Sub-Zero and avenge own death. Successful MK2: Thinks Sub-Zero's back; kill him again. Found out it's a different Sub-Zero and chose not to kill him. MK3: No mission. Escaped Hell/Netherealm and just hanging out. MK4: Kill Sub-Zero II and avenge death of family and clan. Almost succeeds until Quan Chi says he killed Scoprion's family, then drags him to Netherealm. Successful. In MK:DA Quan Chi escaped Scorpion and he followed. What exactly happened afterwards we don't know yet. Personally, I think that's not a bad track record. IMO, Scorpion's always been a solid character to play as. He's always been my first choice and is still my best fighter and has yet to disappoint me. If you don't like playing as Scorpion, I repeat: Don't play as him. Sub-Zero's always been a solid character. Good playability and his story has evolved well throughout the series. Honestly, I personally don't see anyhting wrong with Sub-Zero. In regards to Scorpion and Sub-Zero NEEDING to be in every Mortal Kombat: at one time, when I was younger, I would have agrred with this. When MK3 came out and there was no Scorpion, I was furious. Now, although I would be disappointed if Scorpion were to be left out, I would not angry and boycott the game. Looking back, my main problem with there being no Scorpion in MK3 is that I had no one to fall back on as my "go-to guy." Also, at the time I for some reason had this belief that this meant Scorpion was never coming back. I've since relaxed on the issue, escpecially since my list of favorite characters has grown beyond Scorpion. I don't think Mortal Kombat NEEDS any one character. It doesn't NEED Scorpion. It doens't NEED Sonya Blade. It doesn't NEED Johnny Cage, or Sub-Zero or anyone. The MK cast has grown enough that ther eare plenty of "classic" characters to choose from. I don't beleive that the original seven charcaters are sacred cows who need to be forced into every MK from here on in. I like Scorpion, Sub-Zero, and Rayden but I don't like the other four. The problem with leaving out favorite characters is this beleif that is someone doesn't appear in a game it automatically means they're dead. Baraka wasn't in MK3 or UMK3 and everyone thought it was because he died. He wasn't in MK4 and everyone thought he died. He wasn't in MK:DA and everyone thought he died. Baraka has YET to be confrimed dead in ANY game and he's back in MK:D good as new. So people just need to relax about this sort of thing and hope that the MK creators don't start killing off characters at random. Sonya's not in MK:D, I'm sure she'll be back. Kitana is not in MK:D but we know she's still alive. If your favorite character is left out, it sucks, I know, but then just try a different character. You just might like him or her.

Wow, very nicely said. You made a lot of intelligent points. Very good.