I hear in some realms Kamidogu are called McGuffins...

That's definitely how I'd rank them.
MK characterization is (unfortunately) usually pretty slavish to whatever arching concept they want to pull off; but in theory, that's got to be the heirarchy of villains. Conceptually, at least.

From MK Mythologies:

"Over the millennia, the Netherealm has had many rulers. Most of them were forged within its fiery pits, eventually ripping their masters mercilessly from their thrones. One however, came not from the bowels of the Netherealm, but from the heavens of reality. He was the fallen Elder God known as Shinnok.

Upon entering the realm, Shinnok found himself immediately under attack by its then ruler Lucifer. He would exist tortured and tormented by the dregs of hell for thousands of years. Until he met Quan Chi. Quan Chi is a free roaming sorcerer. That means that he can travel the various planes of reality without detection from their gods. It also means that over the years he has obtained great power.

Aware of Shinnok’s dilemma, Quan Chi traveled to the Netherealm and made the fallen god an offer. He will free him from his confines and assist him in defeating Lucifer and his minions, in exchange for power and the ability to rule at his side if and when he escapes the Netherealm entirely."

Here are the facts to be taken from this:

1) Lucifer is just one in a series of demons who happens to hold the throne, which he got by killing the one who held the throne last. He is nothing special, simply the most powerful demon at the moment.

2) When Shinnok first arrives in Hell, he is weaker than Lucifer.

3) Shinnok needs Quan Chi's help to escape captivity and defeat Lucifer. Thus, in his current state, Shinnok is weaker than Quan Chi.

Now...MK4. According both to statements from Vogel (seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vxjitrX9Q8) and MK Deadly Alliance's storyline confirming which endings from MK4 did and didn't happen - we know the reason Shinnok lost MK4 was because Quan Chi, who had his amulet, was sucked into the Netherealm by Scorpion.

Why would Quan Chi and the amulet disappearing from battle cause Shinnok to be beaten? Doesn't Shinnok have the power to beat Liu Kang on his own? Apparently not.

See, we know it was Liu who defeats him because there are FOUR MK Champion medals at his grave, but more importantly, because Tanya's MK4 ending has been confirmed as partially true. She led Liu into a trap...except Liu survived. How could he survive? Well, in the ending, he dies because Quan Chi and Shinnok are waiting for him. Shinnok shoots a fireball that kills him in one hit. So how did that not happen?

It must be that Quan Chi was secretly using the amulet to make Shinnok stronger, and since Scorpion carried him off to Hell, Shinnok lost that power. He was alone when Liu fell into the trap, he didn't have the power to kill Liu, and Liu defeated him in one-on-one battle.

That's not to say Shinnok has NO power. At the end of Mythologies, he turns into a giant monster that's completely immune to all of Sub-Zero's attacks except the most powerful, a move that drains all of Subbie's power at once. He also has the ability to control what all of Hell and the demons within look like, for instance. Another instance of Shinnok's power is that he can do one thing Shao Kahn cannot - he can resurrect the dead. Kahn and Shang specifically came to Shinnok for help bringing back both Sindel and Mileena in MK3/Trilogy.
However, it can easily be assumed that these powers are granted to him by the Throne of Hell, and have nothing to do with the fact that he used to be an Elder God.
We can guess this because of the fact that if Shinnok could turn into that nearly invincible monster in Mythologies, how come he couldn't do it to fight Lucifer? Why did he need a sorceror who's NOT invincible? And why couldn't he do it in MK4? You must HAVE to be the ruler of Hell, and IN Hell at the time to be able to take that monster form. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.

Also consider his special moves and Fatalities. His entire theme is summoning giant skeleton hands. This, combined with the resurrection power, implies that his godly domain is Death. But he can't be the God of Death, Elder Gods don't HAVE domains. They have power over EVERYTHING. And he's not an Elder God anymore. And he wasn't demoted from Elder God to God of Something when he became fallen. If he were still a God, he'd have been more powerful than Lucifer, who was just a demon. So obviously he didn't gain control over death specifically until he became Ruler of Hell.

Still, the evidence all points to Quan Chi being more powerful overall than Shinnok, and Shao Kahn (even though he can't raise the dead) being more powerful overall than Quan Chi.

Lucifer's never referred to as a demon. Though unlikely, there's even the possibility that Lucifer is the Netherealm's equivalent of Raiden.

Because the Netherealm is typically a benevolent land of the damned governed by it's own realities and pseudo-politics, there's no reason to assume Lucifer is a malicious character. I always thought it would be interesting if he were as vital to balance and maintenance as Raiden is to Earth (theoretically).


He was just cast from heaven, stripped of his Elder God status, and hounded by Lucifer! It's not like he sat on his laurels powerless!


Doesn't Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, and various other super powered individuals in the MK universe theoretically have the power to take care of Liu Kang? This one's got to be down to game mechanics.

I'm willing to concede that Shinnok is as beatable as Raiden (or Fujin), but that comes with it's own in-game concessions that don't always rely on cheesy sacrifice.


A six year old with a big hunk of Kryptonite can take out Superman.

Shinnok is almost certainly conceptually more powerful than Quan Chi, even if his vulnerabilities and circumstances are dependent on different rules and situations.

Shao Kahn is no weaker for being bound by rule to not walk into Earthrealm and stab Liu Kang in the neck; than Kitana is stronger for being free to do exactly that.

A vague logic (that goes both ways) is also the fact that Quan Chi serves Shinnok, and not the other way around.

"forged in its fiery pits" doesn't say demon to you? C'mon, man. He's not a protector-god. He was born in Hell. There are no other kinds of citizens born in the Netherealm than the demons.
And there's not one single thing in all of Mortal Kombat to suggest the Netherealm is "benevolent" at all. You know what "benevolent" means, right? It means good. Y'know, the opposite of evil?

Raiden was probably "born" in the clouds of Heaven.
Those guys've gotta come from somewhere.

The notion of Lucifer as a protector god kinda distracts from the point though. That's just an idea I've always been fond of, and is one of many possible scenarios with a shred of logic.

I just mean to say there's no reason to think of Lucifer as a reflection of Shinnok's perceived weakness (which was inevitably sponsored by his stripped status and expulsion, and maintained by regular infernal harassment).

If Lucifer was a demon -- there's still no reason to think of him as a reflection on Shinnok's weakness. I mean, if gods do have to go up against enemies from the Netherealm, who other than demons/devils are they going to match?

Conclusion: none of this is evidence that Shinnok isn't still a god, and isn't conceptually more powerful than Quan Chi; his (able) servant. There's also no reason to believe Shinnok does not put the grrr in swinger, baby.

EDIT:

What about the Netherealm makes you think it isn't?

The fact that it's a realm and not another plane of existence suggests that it's part of the same delicate balance that all the other realms partake in. It may be a vague representation of evil, but the realm itself houses the evil (and evil dead) far from the other realms, which strikes me as quite a useful and pleasant scenario for everyone else.

After all; the swinging door characters we all know and love are the exceptions the rule.
There's no reason to feel certain that Lucifer (and the Netherealm) were anything but an essential part of keeping order.

How can you agree that being stripped of Elder Status makes Shinnok weaker than Quan Chi, then turn right around and say Shinnok is not weaker than Quan Chi? Are you contradicting yourself, or are you agreeing with me that by taking the throne of Hell, he gained more power?

You ever broken a limb, suffered a severe injury, scraped a knee?
It heals if you let it.

Gods are inherently more powerful than sorcerors.
Shinnok is a god. Not an Elder god, but a god.

See, I just don't see it like that. When Shinnok became Fallen, I cannot agree with the assumption that he was demoted from Elder God to Lesser God, because a Lesser God like Raiden or Fujin would still be more powerful than both Lucifer and Quan Chi, which Shinnok wasn't.

A god's power doesn't get broken and heal like a limb. Raiden was just as powerful after his suicide in Deception as he was before. He wasn't weakened and in need of time to recover at all.

Shinnok may still be an immortal entity. He may even have power close to a god's as a result of holding the Throne of Hell. But he was still weaker than Lucifer when he first arrived in Hell, he was weaker than Quan Chi when he needed Quan Chi's help to escape and take the throne, and even though he has power now as ruler of Hell, he' s still weaker than Quan Chi as long as Chi has the amulet.

So I simply see no evidence that he's still a "god" of any variety. The ranking still stands at Kahn > Quan > Shinnok. I'd put Shang behind Shinnok, but that's the only change I would make.

... Okay, it's a special circumstance, but Raiden isn't exactly in the best of shape when he heads to Outworld for summer vacation.
Don't you think you're undercutting the situation a little bit? Don't you think it's going to be a little uncomfortable, if not severely debilitating, to be:
A) Beaten by the Elder Gods after an evening's rampage
B) Stripped of your Elder God powers
C) Thrust against your will into an infernal realm

It's not like he was demoted to your standard god and sent away with a packed lunch. The point I've been making the whole time is that he never has a time to recover from that, because Lucifer is on his tail the whole time until he manipulates his way to the throne, and gets a chance to breath (while, yes, amassing some more power, even if only in minions).


He also only had, what? Five minutes of CG FMV to stand on his mark and read his jibberish lines?
I think we've already pretty well covered the MK tradition of bending and characterizing characters for whatever short-term is required...

Also, Shinnok was modelled on Steve Beran, so... Case closed. God!

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Shinnok WAS demoted from Elder to Lesser God.

Quan Chi is STILL more powerful because of the Amulet, and Shao Kahn and Raiden are both STILL even more powerful than THAT, because it took Shang and Quan-with-amulet together to beat each of them.

So being a god wouldn't change his situation one bit.

The characterizations and power levels are not bent or incompatible from game to game as you seem to believe, sir. I absolutely believe there is consistency and you're just being insulting to Midway out of some sort of bitterness because you don't agree with some of the things they've done.

As far as why Liu Kang can beat vastly powerful gods and immortals, I think being The Chosen One means he has some sort of powers granted by the Elder Gods that they've never explained to us. Why else would his fireballs and animality form be a long, serpentine dragon - just like the Elder Gods' true appearances?

Let me just put my two cents into this.

Hard to tell who exactly is more powerful than whom here. Shinnok was unable to escape the Netherealm for countless thousands of years without the amulette. Shao Kahn, in MK3, came darn close to opening a gateway to the realm. At this point Shinnok realizes that Kahn really is a threat to him.

Secondly, Kahn does, or did have the ability to resurrect the dead. In Mileena's UMK3/Trilogy bio, it states that Kahn resurrects her in order to track down Kitana. Now, it aslo states that Shinnok allowed Kahn to do this, but I get the feeling that Kahn had the ability in the first place to even attempt it.

Kahn is also not a mortal with tremendous power, he's been described as an immortal with comes close to being a god. My guess would be on par with the likes of Raiden and Fujin, if not actually on par Shinnok.

The thing to remember about Shinnok's condition when he first arrived in Hell/Netherrealm, is he'd just come from battling Raiden. Chances are, he'd been in an weakened condition when Lucifer came across him, and simply had been overpowered and unable to gain a foothold in their struggle until he'd teamed with Chi.

Now, I do believe Shinnok was stripped of his Elder God status, I believe Shinnok says as much to Taven in Armageddon, but he's still a god. I don't think he'd been banished to the realm as some spirit, but in a god form. However, even in his weakened state, I don't believe that Chi was more powerful than Shinnok, only working as a team were they able to overcome Lucifer and his minions. The amulette is another matter, of course.

But if the amulette made Quanchi so much more powerful than Shinnok, why was it necessary for both Shang Tsung and Quan Chi to attack a weak "Shao Kahn" in the intro of Deadly Alliance? Why didn't Chi just destroy the Emperor using Shinnok's relic? Besides the dramatic effect, of course.

That's not entirely true. Her Trilogy ending slightly retcons her bio:



This part of her ending is then confirmed as canon by MK Gold.


So basically, Shao Kahn himself does not have the power to simply raise the dead whenever he feels like. He needs Shinnok to do it for him.


Quan Chi with the amulet is still less powerful than Kahn because Kahn is the most powerful of all the villains, as I established like three times. But also it's mainly because Quan never really stopped to unlock the amulet's full power. He was still learning to use it in Deadly Alliance.

Well, even I said that Shinnok probably allowed for that one " Now, it aslo states that Shinnok allowed Kahn to do this, "

But you also have to factor in that pact that Kahn's servants make with him, that allows them to come back to life, allowing for the emperor to endow them with life again. So like I said, he must have the ability to resurrect to a certain degree.

And I agree, Kahn is more powerful than Shinnok, that was the one thing I didn't dispute

That pact, as far as we know, only applies to Shang. We have no proof what other servants may have made it.

I think I'd have a lot less respect if Midway had made Raiden a lowly mortal for every game. I'm not saying there aren't always reasons for it, but they certainly shouldn't be confused with the conceptual bredth of a character.

Fatalities, super powers, FMV intros...
They all demand certain things that don't necessarily gel with the conceptual nature of the characters. Quan Chi doesn't eradicate all enemies with the amulet; Sub-Zero doesn't instantly freeze and shatter his opponents; Shang Tsung doesn't instantly steal souls; Shao Kahn doesn't snap Cage and Sonya's neck; Kung Lao's hat comes back to him; Raiden doesn't banish everyone to the Netherealm; Shujinko doesn't get a clue; Onaga doesn't command his invincible army...


In-game requirements, design asthetics, and suspension of disbelief.

Things that are already tangibly recognisable, as opposed to pretending Sonya and Johnny Cage got magic powers from the Elder Gods just in case Liu Kang screwed up, but they forgot to tell us.

... Serpents? Are you disrespecting the giant face Elder God because you're some sort of crazed, embittered spinster intent on besmirching the good name of MK and it's creative team?! How dare you question the creative merits of Big Face!

1) Kung Lao's hat DOES come back to him. Both in-gameplay and out, it behaves the exact same way. It's probably enchanted.

Fatalities like Sub-Zero's deep freeze that makes bodies brittle enough to shatter take time to build up the energy. Time that you don't have during an intense battle, but do have while the opponent is defeated, barely conscious, and dizzily just trying to stay on their feet, as they are during the "finish him" period.

Quan Chi can't vaporize anyone with his amulet because like I said, he hasn't gotten that far in studying its powers yet.

Onaga's army was vaporized by Raiden's suicide.

I can go on like this forever. The point is, you're wrong about things being different in FMVs and "special scenarios" than they are at other times.

2) Sonya and Johnny were never the chosen one like Liu was.

We all know MK1 was not like the movie depicted it, and yet people still insist on holding onto this ridiculous belief that in MK1 they were the three musketeers, that Sonya, Johnny, and Liu are the only good guys and they were all Raiden's favorites.

Newsflash, my friend: Scorpion, Sub-Zero, and Kano were on the exact same side as Johnny, and Sonya: THEIR OWN.

3) The Big Face is just how they appear and communicate to mortals and lesser gods, inside the realms.

The true form of the Elder Gods, which they take in The Void, is visible in the concept art for Onaga's ending in Deception, and in Armageddon, in the carvings Taven sees on the wall in the first temple, of Delia praying to them. they look exactly, and I mean exactly like the dragon in the Mortal Kombat logo.
Google image search, unfortunately, isn't turning up the picture from Onaga's ending that I'm looking for to show you. Anyone here have it?

I'm on your side for the most part, but that chosen one bit came from the movie. The original game just has Liu Kang requesting to go to the tournament. And if you go by the MK1 comic by Tobias, you do sort of get the sense that at least Johnny and Liu wouldn't end up as enemies. If I'm wrong about the chosen one thing, so be it.

With all that's been said, I'll say that you have a valid p.o.v. Razor.

However, you didn't prove your initial point at all. Which I don't have any problems with, cuz it's just a different view on the character. But at the same time, all that's been posted on your part is circumstantial, and alot of the times, speculation...albeit based on the facts.

It's not unlike what I do when I'm conceptualizing, so I appreciated the creativity.

Lastly here, with all that's been posted, I should go through and point out all the circumstances, and speculation you've given us. All the fallacies and the ect..

But eh.

You're not wrong, you're just...incorrect.

You're right that Liu's never referred to by the words "chosen one" in the games, I just like to use the phrase to describe his status as the ultimate hero, because it offers a simple logical explanation for 1) his ability to beat Kahn again and again, and 2) the fact that all his moves take the shape of dragons.

You'd have to tell me more about those "people." Don't know them:

Since you seem to think everything is literal, I guess Johnny and Sonya just owe their abilities to perseverence and staying in school.


Y'know, this has been going long enough and it isn't important, but... Raiden; lesser god of thunder? "Elder" is distinction enough, isn't it?


Argus is an Elder God. Can you milk him?

Seems to be gradually drifting toward fan-fiction, rather than just interpretation of information that's less than specific.
Shinnok's status might never be explicitly referenced post-expulsion, but we've seen humanoid Elder Gods.


I should stop doing people the courtesy of engaging them on a point-by-point basis, and just skip straight to this...
After all this, I think I hate MK now...

Johnny actually does owe his powers to training. His MK1 bio tells us that before he became an actor, he travelled the world and trained with "ancient masters". This is how he uses his "ki" or "fa jing" or whatever word you want to use, to perform the Shadow and Green Bolt moves.

I have no explanation for Sonya's Ring Toss or Kiss of Death, but I've always suspected Special Forces technology to be at work there. She's probably the only character with powers in the entire series who has no excuse for having them. All the other Earth-born characters with any kind of glowing energy attack, even Jax, have some sort of training alluded to in their backstories.

And Argus does not become an Elder God until AFTER Armageddon.

But yes, Elder Gods CAN take humanoid forms if they choose to. Logically they can take absolutely any form they feel like. They're all-powerful, after all. But that doesn't change the fact that their TRUE forms is SHOWN in the games to be a dragon identical to the MK logo.

Heheh, choose your fate!

From what I'm gathering...and correct me if I'm wrong on this....it looks like Mick and Predator are basing their view of Shinnok's supposed power level on that he's a "god" which probably should mean something (even if it doesn't). Meanwhile, Razor is basing his view on the various deus ex machinas that explain/justify why Shinnok is weaker despite his "god-hood."


My take:
Shinnok is the weakest because all the other main bad guys' character shields outrank his.



CHECKMATE!