Sub_One-Niner Wrote: queve Wrote: That’s why I said, MK has deep gameplay, its not the worst, but its not the best neither. ***This is what I'm getting at, but I wouldn't even go as far as to say that MK has deep gameplay. ***MK will probably never be at the top if we're talking about 3D gameplay, but who cares? As long as peeps are enjoying this game and getting the most out of it that they want, Deception doesn't have to be SC.

Exactly my points.

Opinion.

I know what this thread is about but since people on the other side of the discussion are putting inputs about Wanderer, Colguile and Menthol's opinions it's only fair that someone says something in this thread about others opinions when they see something that doesn't seem right.

Thanks for changing your view from Tekken and the others are boring and weak to they may be perfect in some aspects but they are still not my favourites.

Now that I'm fine with, not that you said they may be perfect, but that you've acknowledged their quality despite your opinions on them.

Something as extreme as my visits comment seemed ok to me considering your comment about you being an expert at games but still find them boring and weak, this may have not been your intention but that could've easily been viewed as arrogant and boastful.

Since you've not commented on my 2nd point about gameplay vs story I'm taking it you've taken it on board and agreed with it, otherwise feel free to comment I'd like to know your opinions on it.

I Can see where you're coming from queve, because to be honest, i really don't like VF4 (the juggles just annoy me) and i almost hate SC2 (It may be fluid, but the controls aren't specific enough, and as a result, i find i can win a lot of fights just by pad mashing). I do admit though that both have deeper gameplay than MK:DA (well at least VF4...SC2 is debatable).

(In case you're wondering, i'm a Tekken fan first and foremost)

danadbab Wrote: It doesn’t matter how many moves there are, or how great or crappy the game play is!! It’s true for all the games.... Mk deception might not have all of the depth v.f, tekken, DOA, and sc2 have, but if u don’t play smart u won’t win... I have many times walked away from the mk machine (sorry please don’t kill me) to play tekken street fighter and soul edge, beat up some one who plays the game 24/7, knows all the moves.. But they don’t play smart and lose.

Story of my gaming life! (It's sad that i have gaming life, heh)
I brake down and anyalise things such as moves and combos, own the computer, then when the time rolls around for me to fight a buddy they pick me apart because all i ever try is flashy moves and combos. Example: repeatedly using Lee's acid rain kicks in Tekken4, when i know damn well if i screw up i'm going to get punished by my firends badly, but i do it regardless because it looks cool.

FLSTYLE Wrote: I know what this thread is about but since people on the other side of the discussion are putting inputs about Wanderer, Colguile and Menthol's opinions it's only fair that someone says something in this thread about others opinions when they see something that doesn't seem right. Thanks for changing your view from Tekken and the others are boring and weak to they may be perfect in some aspects but they are still not my favourites. Now that I'm fine with, not that you said they may be perfect, but that you've acknowledged their quality despite your opinions on them. Something as extreme as my visits comment seemed ok to me considering your comment about you being an expert at games but still find them boring and weak, this may have not been your intention but that could've easily been viewed as arrogant and boastful. Since you've not commented on my 2nd point about gameplay vs story I'm taking it you've taken it on board and agreed with it, otherwise feel free to comment I'd like to know your opinions on it.

My intention was not to sound arrogant by that statement. For that I apologize. Expert was not the right word to choose.

By saying that, I could let people know that the reason I don’t like those games IS NOT because I do not know how to play them, but because I feel they are boring and weak. (opinion)

About the story, I think I already said that both elements are important, even though I like the story a lot more, but I do agree everything has its limits.

Oh, BTW, I did not change my view at all, that statement was already written in my original post, meaning that I do know they are great gameplay wise, but still boring and weak to me.

BTW, someone new to the board with No visits 1, could have a lot more knowledge then any of us who have been here for a year.

So it is not correct to say or think that someone with a higher visit number is superior to one who has less then 50.

Just an extra I forgot to add.

queve Wrote: BTW, someone new to the board with No visits 1, could have a lot more knowledge then any of us who have been here for a year. So it is not correct to say or think that someone with a higher visit number is superior to one who has less then 50. Just an extra I forgot to add.

Well going off the amount of n00bs creating useless threads about either nothing or rehashing old news I'll agree it's possible but I'm not expecting it anytime soon

Fair enough your view didn't change but it sounded more ... respectful to them if you know what I mean.

Well that's me done here carry on

I've played MK since MK1.MK1/MK2/MK3 gameplay was always more manic/intense than the Tekken series.And I AM a fan of both the MK series and the 3d fighters series Tekken/VF/Soul Calibur.

MK1 to MK3 fighting gameplay may have been less complex than say VF but if you had to good players playing if was seriously fast!

I think from seeing the Tekken 5 footage (which I will probably get on ps2 as it will be worth a home purchase but not arcade play cash) that they are stuck in a rut,graphics haven't progressed much,only 2 new characters,characters' costumes not very different.
I think MKD will get closer to the 2d MK series feel with the addition of the uppercut,a basic but key MK gameplay move.By MK7 they will be refining the gameplay further,maybe even focussing on it more than this time.At that point I think they will overtake the Tekken series in terms of character design,graphics,and maybe gameplay complexity.The only rival will be a new Soul Calibur,but there's definately enough room for 2 great fighting games...

FLSTYLE Wrote: queve Wrote: BTW, someone new to the board with No visits 1, could have a lot more knowledge then any of us who have been here for a year. So it is not correct to say or think that someone with a higher visit number is superior to one who has less then 50. Just an extra I forgot to add. Well going off the amount of n00bs creating useless threads about either nothing or rehashing old news I'll agree it's possible but I'm not expecting it anytime soon Fair enough your view didn't change but it sounded more ... respectful to them if you know what I mean. Well that's me done here carry on

I do. Like all MK games, to me MK: DA fast and took old school kombat to a new level. New level in terms of more "only for" (not a bad thing for past MK games for me) moves for certain characters and not all characters have uppercuts,round houses and what not. You had to dig down and be creative with the characters combo's in MK3 to get more damage, same with MK1-MK4. Don't get me wrong for it it was good for its time, but I am glad that MK did something new that was present in MK: DA.For me MK:DA free 1st real 3-D MK game, in terms of attack from a diff side if the other character doesn't watch it. In all I've been playing MK since I was 8 because 1st of all it was fun, diffent , cool storyline, characters.

Great thread and let the whiners whine their asses off,we are the majority so their complaints and ideas are in vane.

This is becoming a very interesting thread. You all are right...MK has a very strong story to it that keeps me coming back. DA was a huge change and it took me some time to adjust to it. Being used to HP, LP, HK, LK, Block and Run took me awhile to understand the "fight styles". I loved it and glad to see it return in Deception. Good story, good characters(mostly), gameplay leaves MK in a world of its own.

To the one that said they where gettin the Premium pack on Oct.4. Way to go and so will I. I will see you online.

Well I don't think I've ever played a fighting game that has a *DEEP* gameplay enginge. There always seems to be something that can be changed in my opinon but I do like the MK engines and thats why I play the games. Oh, and I will say I prefer the MK engine over the Virtual Fighter engine anyday!

kidkrazy Wrote: To the one that said they where gettin the Premium pack on Oct.4. Way to go and so will I. I will see you online.

That would be me fella. Damn staight, it's the only way to go. Hopefully, I'll be able to get a PS2 network adaptor then we can dance

Grouchy Wrote: Well I don't think I've ever played a fighting game that has a *DEEP* gameplay enginge. There always seems to be something that can be changed in my opinon but I do like the MK engines and thats why I play the games. Oh, and I will say I prefer the MK engine over the Virtual Fighter engine anyday!

I'll differ with you on this one. I think that CvS2 is a fairly deep game compaired to something like MKD. If you look at just some of the mechanics in CvS2 you'll find things like: parries, just defends(if I remember that right, been a while since I've played it), air blocking, counter-throws, super move grooves with multiple grooves, dash/run, combos that aren't dial-ups etc. there's plenty more. I'll tell you right now that MKD won't even have a fraction of those mechanics involved in it. But that's ok because it works for a game like MKD. And like someone else said before, I'm sure that this engine is just going to keep getting more refined the longer MK is around.

Virtua fighter is a boring game, and its got the lamest boss ever.

kingjolly Wrote: Virtua fighter is a boring game, and its got the lamest boss ever.

Yeah. Who was it? Wasn't it that T1000 ripoff Dural. I think that's his name.

Sub_One-Niner Wrote: Grouchy Wrote: Well I don't think I've ever played a fighting game that has a *DEEP* gameplay enginge. There always seems to be something that can be changed in my opinon but I do like the MK engines and thats why I play the games. Oh, and I will say I prefer the MK engine over the Virtual Fighter engine anyday! I'll differ with you on this one. I think that CvS2 is a fairly deep game compaired to something like MKD. If you look at just some of the mechanics in CvS2 you'll find things like: parries, just defends(if I remember that right, been a while since I've played it), air blocking, counter-throws, super move grooves with multiple grooves, dash/run, combos that aren't dial-ups etc. there's plenty more. I'll tell you right now that MKD won't even have a fraction of those mechanics involved in it. But that's ok because it works for a game like MKD. And like someone else said before, I'm sure that this engine is just going to keep getting more refined the longer MK is around.

Well CvS 2 is a good game I did prefer MvC 2, I think mainly because of the Marvel characters but the game played basiclly the same. And I agree on that fact that the MK engine works really good for it. I think MK is made more as a gory fighting game thats really fun and addictive rather then a game that goes deep into the mechanics.

First: let us not judge the fuckin game until it comes out, deal?

no.. theres enough gameplay footage out there for us to judge..

Depth doesn't mean 300 moves per character. Depth means a lot of things. balance being the main thing. balance between characters and balance between moves, making them all useful. MKDA had none of that. 90% of the moves in the game were worthless and only a couple characters were useful in high level play.

A perfect example of depth and "fun" is SSBM. Yes, SSBM has more depth than MKDA. Every move in the game has purpose. And guess what? It's also more fun. MKDA had neither depth nor fun. It failed miserably. MKD looks to be more of the same. Even worse.

Digital_Assassin Wrote: First: let us not judge the fuckin game until it comes out, deal? no.. theres enough gameplay footage out there for us to judge..

Hey Digital? Are you actually the one playing the game during the footage? Footage means nothing unless you're the one behind the controller. As far as I'm concerned, no one has the right to make any judgements on Deception until they have played it. Once you have, and you still have your issues, then go ahead and bitch. Simple as that.

MENTHOL Wrote: Depth doesn't mean 300 moves per character. Depth means a lot of things. balance being the main thing. balance between characters and balance between moves, making them all useful. MKDA had none of that. 90% of the moves in the game were worthless and only a couple characters were useful in high level play. A perfect example of depth and "fun" is SSBM. Yes, SSBM has more depth than MKDA. Every move in the game has purpose. And guess what? It's also more fun. MKDA had neither depth nor fun. It failed miserably. MKD looks to be more of the same. Even worse.

Menthol, I never said that you needed 300 moves per character for a game to have depth. And you're right, there needs to be balance between characters and moves. And I do believe that MKDA had that for the most part. You explain to me the comment of 90% of the moves in the game are useless. Are we talking special moves or normal attacks? Also explain to me how only a couple of characters are useful in HIGH level gameplay. Off the top of my head, I can list off about 6 characters in DA that I was pretty confident with in any match. What the hell is HIGH LEVEL gameplay anyways?

As far as SSBM, I've only played the game once for quite a few hours. Explain to me how this Mario game is deeper than or is going to be deeper than MKD? From what I've played (and I didn't play nearly enough to master it) SSBM is just as simplistic as MK if not more. Please, correct me if I'm wrong though since, like I've said, I've barely played the game enough to get a great grasp on it.

Siduu101 Wrote: Great thread and let the whiners whine their asses off,we are the majority so their complaints and ideas are in vane.

No.
For every person that thinks MK has deep gameplay, there is many Street Fighter fans, Tekken fans, SC fans, SNK fans ect ect that will think otherwise. You are certianly NOT the majority. Sorry, but it is a MK fanboy's ideas and complaints that are in vain, if any.

Well firstly I would like to commend your bravery for making such a post for the way the boards have been as of late it was very like that the flames would be the only thing keeping this thread alive. Secondly I agree, yes it doesn't have "the" greatest gameplay granted, but why is that in order for a game to be enjoyable it has to be a completely flawless piece of work and cater to every type of audience. In my opinion MK is the funnest to play of all the fighters I found soul caliber to be a very heavy feeling game, the fact that Nightmare was my character of choice probably didn't help that too much. And Tekken I could just mash buttons and beat most people, and if that's considered deep gameplay then, I'm glad MK isn't going to be like that. This is all fine and good but now for the real part of my post.

If all the hardcore gameplay fanatics are so dissappointed about MK then why is it that they keep coiming back, I mean without mentioning any names I've heard many people say they want MK to follow in the VF tekken path, so why don't they just play those games? It's because they love the story and the characters and the fatalities everything that MKD has to offer, so why can't they just accept the fact that MK will never be as "deep" as those games and appreciate everything that is phenomenal about the MK universe.

Once again I repect your opinion queve regardless of what others have to say.

Super Smash Bros. Melee has more depth than MK:DA and probably Deception because of one word. Options. I'm a Mario and Kung Lao player myself so I'll use them for examples. I'm Mario playing against Link so I know that Link's recovery time as a whole is terrible and Mario's is excellent. So I use that to my advantage. I don't rush in swinging. I bait him and force him into a position where he throws an attack I know he's going to miss because he took the bait. Then I proceed to punish.

Now I'm Mario fighting a Samus. Samus is a different story all together. She's got great rushdown so I wouldn't want to try to match her on that level and she's got range but I do have fast as hell smash moves and the cape which is extremely useful in any match let alone against Samus.

Now I'm Mario fighting a Bowser. I rushdown that slow reptile and don't let him even touch the ground. Mario's dodging abilities are top notch so I don't have to worry too much about getting hit by any of his pound attacks. Also, Mario's got the best throw in the game and Bowser is a cinch to grab hold of.

Let's move on to MK. I'm Kung Lao fighting Sub-Zero. I set up my jab into a style branch avoiding Sub's combo setups.

I'm Kung Lao fighting Reptile. I set up my jab into a style branch avoiding Reptile's combo setups.

I'm Kung Lao fighting Mavado. I set up my jab into a style branch avoiding Mavado's combo setups.

Starting to see the difference? Smash Bros. allows the player to choose his own style of play. The only way to efficiently play MK is to learn the combos and how to set them up. There's no options. You can't win unless you know how to set up those style branches. At least not against someone who knows what they're doing.

Siduu101 Wrote: Great thread and let the whiners whine their asses off,we are the majority so their complaints and ideas are in vane.

Expressing what you believe in, what you know, what you love with passionate, intelligent and well thought out insight is hardly complaining in vain. Any type of ideals that have developed backgrounds can never be argued in vain. It's impossible.
====
What's so amusing about these "complaints" is that people try to relate them to hating. People "hate" the gameplay because it's not deep enough? Not entirely Yes, MK is not deep, everyone knows that. What's wrong with wanting that to change? What's wrong with individuals explaining why it should change, or why it even has to in the first place?.

What people fail to realize is that not only did DA lack depth, but it had catastrophic design flaws. These flaws do not result from implementation, but poor concept. The gameplay failed at its conception. All of these failures have been well documented, studied, objectively looked at and discussed for quite some time, even before news of D began to surface.

It is perfectly fine for a fighter to be simple. It is not, however, fine for it to be shitty; and that's what most of us who "whine" and "complain" are trying to explain. Though, this explanation is consistently being over shadowed. Over shadowed by people who state "opinions." "Opinions" which have absolutely no intellectual development or foresight put into them.

"Opinions" that lack knowledge of its directed subject matter are not opinion. It's ignorance. Get your ass on your shoulders as much as you want, but it's true. If we were discussing any other subject, everyone would agree with that statment. We are talking about gameplay, however. Views have been tainted, so such fortitude is void of the conscious.

When a person puts emphasis on something like story or fatalities, that 'can' inherently create bias, as well. Now, what happens when this ignorance and bias culminates? Flaws which have been clearly pointed out and thoroughly explained, are seen as nothing more than an instrument of retort against the "hater" or the "elitist."

What does all that mean? Well, bluntly put; many of you criticize "haters" and "whiners" with blind, under-developed knowledge regarding gameplay. You simply do not understand. Not because of any lack of intelligence, but because you simply do not understand. You do not see the issues. Queeve is the only one who had the balls to admit it.

It remains; as far as a fighting game goes, DA was a pile of shit. Not so much because it lacks depth, but because it lacked almost every fundamental design concept in existence. It was impossible for depth to even reside. Because of the "foundation" - or lack there of - which has been be laid down, it is quite evident how MKD's gameplay will turn out.

There is no reason to fear depth; it will not destroy MK’s style. If anything, it will improve it. It will not make it a VF, or another Tekken. So long as the designers do not attempt to. It’s important to note that depth is not complexity, either. In fact, some of the most accessible, well designed games are not complex; they are deep. They are designed well. Which is the goal of any game, period.

Edit: And people really, really need to get this "if you want it to be like Tekken, VF, SC..." shit out of their thought process. None of us want that, I think we can all agree, no?