... War.

I'll agree with that, it is repetitive to see.

I thought they had it good with Noob Smoke, but look how long that lasted... And I didn't like the direction they took. And Jaded, if that war was actually a link to the song "War," I would have laughed my ass off.

Sorry, quote system on this forum is strange, to say the least.


Fair enough.
But I think that he is still more powerful than just elemental god, if only by a little.
And what about Quan Chi? What do you think his powerlevel is?


Another fair point.
Though I personally inclined to believe that Bi Han's mind was corrupted, so he become ruthless demon. I just couldn't think of Bi Han from MKM desiring to conquer the world. It's like he is completely different person alltogether. I could understand if Noob Saibot wanted to be the best assassin of all of them, but conquering the world...?


Actually we don't know if his MKM ending retcons his MK1 story or they kind of co-exist. If his MKM ending is straighforward retcon (something that was never truly clarified), than Bi Han was doing precisely the same thing during MK1 story, that he had done in MK9 - killing earth warriors and lowering earth chances for survival for the highest bidder. If that's the case than Bi Han of the Old Canon is practically the same as Bi Han in the new one. And it's still strikes me as quite an OOC moment for him.


I always believed that "Chosen Ones" meant not "chosen ones by the gods", but rather "chosen ones because they had something special about them", something like inner strength or special powers. Kind of special thing they were born with and which activates only during disastrous events - like merging of worlds. It actually removes the problem with Smoke - he always was a "chosen one" and it was not something that was granted to him before or after automation - it was alwaus present. Smoke's ending in MK3 indirectly states that he was the "chosen one".

Atention, pure specualtion ahead:
This special protection could've been put in place by the gods, when the heroes were born. And consecutively those heroes were chosen as some sort "last line of defense". Or gods just picked them randomly by sheer luck or they had foreseen their future and saw that they will become great warriors, who will be able to fight off Shao Kahn's invasion. It could be tied to the origin of the Mortal Kombat tournament in the old canon. It was foressen that Kahn one day will try to conquer the Earth so tournament was created. But in case if Kahn will be able to broke the rules somehow, there is always squad of some chosen warriors around, who are naturally invincible to the most powerfull Kahn's magic - soul steal.
End of pure specualtion.

Well he's confirmed more powerful than Shang Tsung.

But still much less powerful than Shao Kahn, because it took him and Shang together to beat Kahn in Deadly Alliance, and even then Konquest Mode said it was a close fight, Kahn almost won. And keep in mind, that Deadly Alliance Kahn was far weaker than Kahn is in MK2 and 3. Losing Edenia and Earthrealm really cost him a lot of power and he had to go into hiding to regain his strength, which he doesn't finish doing until the end of Deception.

Since Kahn and Raiden seem roughly on the same level, and it took Shang and Quan working together to beat Raiden in the MKD opening, Quan is obviously not as powerful as Raiden either.

I suspect Quan is actually a bit more powerful than Shinnok (current Hell-ruling Shinnok, anyway) is, but he doesn't want Shinnok to know it so he acts like the subboss instead of the master.

It's worth noting though that Quan Chi has had the amulet ever since the end of MKM, but he never figured out all the ways how to use it. He only ever managed to learn a few functions like opening those portals. If he had ever unlocked everything it could do, he'd have the powers of an Elder God.



Well, that's what it means when they call Liu Kang that in the MK movie.

But MK3 pretty well spells it out that the chosen are just the ones that the gods picked to protect from soul-drain when the invasion started.

I very, very strongly doubt it that being a chosen one in MK3 could be called a destiny thing that the characters have had since birth, because the MK games (particularly Mythologies) make a big deal about how there is no such thing as fate, the gods can't see the future or choose what kind of person you become or MAKE you be good or evil, good or evil is the choices you make while living your life, and you can choose to change your ways if you like. There was no way of knowing when he was born that, for example, Johnny Cage would grow up to defend the Earth in Mortal Kombat, or that Kano would grow up to be a gangster who joins Shao Kahn. Those paths weren't laid out for them, that's just the lives they ended up leading by chance and the choices they made over time. So how could the gods know who the chosen ones will be ahead of time? What if they had picked somebody at birth and that person never learned kung fu and grew up to work in an office building instead? lol

At first I must ask - do you consider the Elder Gods all-knowing as God in Christianity is? I wish I had read enough MK stuff to know this myself, but unfortunately I don't think I'm motivated enough to do that any longer when the historical storyline is half buried.

I dug our old discussion from page two that I almost forgot. The point you brought that Kuai Liang's Liang part is the surname was reasonable but the reason why Kuai Liang could have it the Chinese way is because he doesn't use the name as much as Liu Kang thus Americans don't need to change the order, instead he uses Tundra or Sub-Zero. What comes to hyphens, while this unlikely relates to Sub-Zero's naming, in Superman the Kryptonians are named like Kal-El, Jor-El, Dru-Zod, Dax-Ur and so on by the logic that the latter part (El for example) is the surname.
Nevertheless, it's nice to see that here still are people interested in naming backgrounds. Especially seeing how fascinating they can be in Mortal Kombat. By the way, something that I noticed:
Lin Kuei → Liang Kuai

The games demonstrate pretty strongly that the Elder Gods don't know quite everything, no.

I mean, they seem to watch and be aware of everything that's going on in the realms in the present. But they can't predict the future. They definitely do not "have a plan" like the Christian god is said to. For example, they only knew of Armageddon and tried to prevent it because Argus told them it would happen because his wife CAN see the future. Shinnok certainly didn't see his own defeat coming either. Elder Gods can be killed, they can become corrupt and turn on each other, lesser gods can be promoted to Elder God status...so yeah, they're far from being the omnipotent, omniscient sort of creator-of-everything you see in Monotheistic religions.
I also suspect that even if they could see the future, they still wouldn't have a plan or give any mortals a special destiny because it's very well established, in both the old timeline and the new one, that they absolutely do not give a shit about the realms. The ONLY thing the Elder Gods care about is that the One Being never wakes back up. The only time they will ever take action is when something that could awaken him is in danger of happening, i.e. all the realms being re-merged into one or all the Kamidogus being re-merged into one. They are just about the laziest deities in the history of fiction.

Because if one would know everything, they would see the future as well - if you believe in determinism where one thing leads to another. Currently a human (homo sapiens sapiens) is unable to know everything, seeing you should be a creator of a universe to do that. Perhaps the man will create a matrix world one day which is a substitute for a universe, this way you could know everything of one universe (by then humans are more-or-less cyborgs though). In fact, you can't be sure whether we're living in a matrix-like brains in a vat universe right now either, but that's for another story.
Other than that, the Elder Gods in Mortal Kombat are indeed really lazy deities, but if you have digged into The Lord of the Rings series, The Silmarillion book more specifically, there is also one great being equal to Sauron who could have prevented all the wars that happened in the movie trilogy, if only he wasn't too lazy and arrogant.

Fair enough. But do we actually have any proof that it was a huge blanket spell that Raiden sent out, and that Raiden didn't actively select who would be part of it?



It's more than reasonable to assume that since Kahn couldn't pick it up, Raiden couldn't either. But even if we're running under the assumption that Raiden sensed out worthy souls for his blanket, he had to have known that the same people who he'd counted on in the past would be good candidates for the job. I admit it's a stretch, but there's a chance he could have gotten a lock onto it while protecting his warriors, especially once he knew Sub-Zero was one of them. And whatever vision he sent to Stryker goes to show he's not above making some manner of contact with them individually.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from. But it's my stance Smoke was at the very least intended to have been one of the chosen ones, even if the logic and timeframe seem to make it technically impossible. If he was actually given protection, it probably was belated. But it's that line that specifically mentions him being attacked by Kahn's warriors, leading into the revelation that his soul's still intact, that makes me sure of it.

But while I can buy that Raiden wouldn't have been able to sense Smoke....the Elder Gods? If it were them (which I doubt considering how out of the way MK3 went to make them look apathetic) deciding who's chosen and who's not, to me that's as good as 100% certainty Smoke was a member of the group, converted or not, and not even out of favoritism either. Like you said, they're aware of everything going on. I have every faith that they could have placed protection over whatever was left of the soul of the stinky-cloudy one after the transformation.

He wouldn't have to look like a Village People reject. Just like Stryker wasn't contractually obligated to always look like a donut-munching Rent-A-Guard Steve.

Personally,if I were in charge of his redesign,I'd probably put more emphasis on his original cover identity as a Chinese Army officer. Keep the service cap,because it's a very distinct design element,but throw some actual uniform on him and maybe a long military-style trenchcoat for good measure. Also,maybe make him a bit less BIG MCLARGEHUGE. With all of that stuff combined,I'm thinking the result should be a combination between this guy:


...this guy:


...and this guy:


DRAWFAGS,GET ONTO THAT,STAT!


Eh,I still say he has a couple of things going for him aside from being the traitor.

I liked his subtle connection to Kano,what with both of their implants being worked on by the same crazy underground surgeon guy. I mean,Special Forces tried to elaborate on that. It failed miserably,of course,but still. His Anti-Jax potential is still there.

Aside from that,while it's true that many MK characters can be casually described as "cold" and "unfeeling",Hsu Hao's complete lack of emotions was pretty much the only characterization he ever received,so if he were to make a comeback,that's something that would need to be emphasized and developed further.

And while I somewhat agree that making Mavado more relevant at the cost of erasing Hsu Hao from existence would be worth it,if the Red Dragons were to make a comeback,it'd probably be nice to fill up their ranks with some actual characters. I mean,not that they would ever ever do that,but if there was ever a need to introduce more Black Dragons,NRS could always dip into Special Forces and bring out,I dunno,Tasia and He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named in addition to Kano,Kira and the rest of them,even as background extras. The RDs have nothing except for Daegon,Mavado and a whole lotta reptilian freaks.

...Unless we'd consider retconning Darrius back into a Red Dragon member to make him suck less.

In any case,I say it's always better to take an obscure existing character and improving upon him rather than make up someone entirely new. Comic books do that kinda shit all the time. I mean,before Heart of Ice,Freeze was just some two-bit crook obsessed with diamonds,and just look at him now.


Fukken signed.

I really need to sit down one day and watch all of the Batman movies back-to-back,but I'd probably say that Returns is still my favorite Batman movie. Hell,next to Home Alone,Gremlins and Die Hard,it's probably my favorite Christmas movie,too. Tim Burton's look,tone and atmosphere of Gotham was just pitch-perfect.


Come on,bro,Batman totally didn't kill that one guy.

The fall killed him. :3


Okay,so if we were to assume that Raiden only receives premonitions about bad events from the previous timeline,that makes the plot slightly less stupid.

That's good. Like I said before,everything that makes me hate the new continuity less is welcome in my eyes.

I think the one standout part in MK9 that shows how much of a dick Bi-Han really is when Scorpion is raging about his clan and family getting killed,and Bi-Han just randomly busts into the room and goes: "Bitch,FUCK your clan!" I know they're supposed to be bitter rivals and all,but man,what an asshole.


The way I always thought about it is that as soon as the invasion started,Raiden immediately went to see the Elder Gods and demanded an explanation for this bullshit. As usual,he'd try to plead his case,but they'd have none of it,but the one thing he'd get them to concede to would be to allow him to grant protection from Kahn's soul drain to handful of selected mortals ho Earthrealm would have a fighting chance. In fact,I'm pretty sure I remember reading something to that extent somewhere.

EDIT:

Well,turns out I was wrong.



To absolutely no one's surprise,it turns out the Elder Gods did absolutely jack shit to help with the invasion. So whatever soul protection Raiden used,that probably wasn't even some sort of Earthrealm-sanctioned magic - it was probably him expending his own divine energy (out of his own pocket,so to say) to create a bunch of ad-hoc magic shields.


I still have to wonder how exactly Kabal and Stryker were chosen. Nightwolf I understand,but those two? Did Raiden scout them out as potential defenders of Earthrealm in advance or was it a spur-of-the-moment thing? lol,it would be hilarious if it's the latter.

*Kahn's fortress erupts out of the ground,unholy soul-sucking vortex appears in the sky,people everywhere start dropping like flies*

Raiden: ...oh geez,OH FUCK,I gotta get someone,ANYONE to protect Earthrealm STAT! Okay,okay,I got my usual crew,Nightwolf,that Sub-Zero Jr. guy's got potential... Who else is there!? shitshitshitshitshitwe'resofuckedYOU THERE! Random cop guy! And uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhKano's friend (who I swear to the Elder Gods better not turn out to be just as evil)! You two will have to do for now!



I's glaringly obvious thinking about it now,but we all seem to be forgetting that Johnny was most definitely one of the Chosen. Unfortunately,divine protection can't protect you from a spear to the face. =(



Ugh,tell me about it... =_=

One of the things I wanted to see the most was Nightwolf's ancestral lands,which were supposed to have been the home base of Earth warriors during the invasion. Instead,they hole up inside the Church. =/

And hell,at least they could've made use of the environment. Why was Sindel just strolling out of the shadows when she should've SHATTERED THE FUCKING STAINED GLASS IN THE BACKGROUND WITH HER BANSHEE SCREAM AND FLOATED INSIDE,LOOKING ALL BADASS?




Well,if you just take this line out of the context of the overall story,there is not even a mention of how exactly Smoke managed to regain his soul and memories. According to this ending,it just sort of happens on its own. There's no mention of Sub-Zero either,outside of the fact that Smoke was sent to eliminate him. Based on what we know,that's not what happened at all.

So my conclusion is that in order to make any sort of sense of this ending,it needs to be complemented by Sub-Zero's. Let's take a look:



Thus,it is now established that during the course of MK3,Smoke and Sub-Zero fought at some point,and Sub,still sensing some good in his former friend and all,manages to get through to him somehow,reawakening his memories. Then they team up,fight off Sektor,capture Cyrax and reprogram him.

This right there would be the moment when Smoke would finally join Raiden's forces.

This would also be the point where he'd start to be "pursued by Kahn's warriors".

This precise moment. Not before. Not because he was originally chosen to defend Earthrealm and not because he gained his soul back and suddenly registered on Kahn's soul radar or some shit. But because he became a part of Team Raiden and,therefore,a legitimate threat to Kahn. Simple as that.

If it helps,think of it as him BECOMING one of the Chosen,earning himself a spot on the team rather than being hand-picked by Raiden at some point.

No, no, I always considered Johnny one of the chosen. That's what the Extermination Squads were for, to hunt down anybody who was left after the world-drain and kill them. And they found and got him.

I think in the Old Canon Bi Han would've acted pretty much like that towards Scorpion. He hates him and disrespects him and his clan, thanks to the bad blood between Lin Kuei and Shirai Ryu and Lin Kuei raising him. Besides, he already defeated Scorpion in the past (twice), and specter still chasing him. If anything he is like pain in the ass for Bi Han, so his reaction is understandable, I think.


That's why I think that some of the earth warriors where granted protection, before invasion.


I think in the Old Canon Smoke was hunted down by Kahn's Squads even before he reagained his soul. Cyborgs were a threat to the Sha Kahn rule, since he couldn't detect them, so naturally they were hunted down. However, Smoke's ending seemingly tells that he somehow understand that he still have a soul somehow.
I think in the old timeline the story went as follows:
- Sub-Zero and Smoke escape Lin Kuei;
- Lin Kuei catches Smoke and Sub-Zero receives his scar;
- All three cyborgs sent to hunt down Sub-Zero;
- Invasion begins;
- Cyborgs separate, all of them hunted down be Kahn's forces;
- Smoke somehow understands that he still have a soul and seek the help of Sub-Zero who remove the last reamins of Lin kue control from him;
- Together they fought Sektor and Cyrax and capture the latter;
- Cyrax reprogarmmed to kill Shao Kahn, but fails (glitches)
- Smoke fights his way into fortress and ends up in Outworld, when fortress being transported back in there, after Kahn's defeat by Liu Kang.
IMHO.

As for your idea of new Hsu Hao - it would a new character with the old name.

The 'somehow' probably involves administering a quick beating and then tinkering. I think it's a given that they fought. Don't remember what it was called, but a specific named component of CSZ was removed in Story Mode that gave him his will back. That's probably what Sub did for Smoke back in the original timeline, which gives them back their free will/soul.

I've always viewed the two endings in tandem, but you do paint a concise picture. I'm still dead-set that the phrasing directly implies he's pursued for the same reason everyone else is, whether by Kahn's directly detecting them or not, but having it occur only after he's reawakened does make sense when you put it that way.

He's too awesome for Kahn's goons to not want a piece of him.

Doesn't Sektor's MK3 ending, noncanon though it is, establish that the Extermination Squads would go after the cyberninjas anyway, soulless or not, good or evil, solely because they're Earthrealm warriors not aligned to Shao Kahn and thus, potential threats?

This is true, but it doesn't necessarily rule out Smoke's being tracked by Kahn, if his soul's still intact:



Cyrax's bio proves that Kahn is able to detect the Earthrealm warriors through their souls somehow. It's the primary way he's hunting down his enemies. But as you've shown, Sektor's ending proves that the cyberninjas can still be targets, souls or not. And if any of the three has nothing left of his original being, it's Sektor.

So it's open to interpretation. We can look at it a few ways:

-Smoke is pursued after reawakening via soul detection (as outlined, keeping into account the line about his soul still being present to some degree).

-It's entirely possible that the Cyberninjas came into conflict with Kahn's goons by simple virtue of pursuing Sub. So they were in fact attacked just as foreign threats.

If I may hold it under a magnifying glass, Sektor's ending uses the word 'attacked' rather than 'pursued'. And this is after he's killed Sub-Zero, who, as a Chosen One, is detectable via soul-shenanigans. So I think Sektor's run afoul of Kahn's forces here by simply being at the end of the jellybean trail, and not because he's being pursued - Cyrax's bio shows they can't be tracked. So I don't think Sektor's ending has much bearing on Smoke's.

(That line about Sektor being unfamiliar with Kahn's warriors serves to remind me about how irritated I was that Story mode just featured the Lin Kuei as sucking up to Kahn. It was preferable when Sub-Zero's problems were an entirely self-contained angle.)

You inspire me.

Although Mortal Kombat likes to put it that way, there really aren't such things as good and evil. In a war it's mostly about survival just.

Sektor's bio in MKTE says that he battled Kahn's forces many times. There is little doubt that cyborgs were pursued by extermination squads as much as chosen warriors.

Considering that Cyrax's bio says they're undetectable, I'd say that still qualifies as 'attacked' or 'came into conflict with'. If they were pursued at all, it's because they were spotted visually.

Thanks for reminding me of this though; I think it's time I started work up again on my MK chronology project (the first draft of which was lost in a hard drive crash).

Not at all.
I always thought that while cyborgs were undetectable by Kahn's magic, they could have been found by usual means. Besides, Kano with his knowledge of the modern tech could have contributed to their search. But it's just a speculation.

Continuing discussion from another thread:

So, Shang invites Sub-Zero to participate into tournament and then Sub-Zero apparently ends up with mission to kill him. Something doesn't add up there.
And what about Scorpion and Kano, then?
As far as I remember, both of them ended up in tournament just because they had they personal agendas. It never was said that they were invited one way or the other. Actually, MK9 clears this potential plothole, alongside with Sub-Zero's one.

Dude, of course Kano was invited. How would he even know about the tournament if he wasn't invited? Just because the reason he said yes to the invite was to ransack some gold doesn't mean he wasn't invited. Anyway, the story states Shang actually wanted Sonya to come to the tournament and used Kano to lure her there, the whole trespassing/capture thing was just his excuse to force her to fight. So there's your proof Kano got an invitation.

As for Scorpion, well in post-Mythologies canon, the story would say that since Quan and Shang are buddy-buddy, Quan would get Shang to let Scorpion in, which is pretty much what we see happen in MK9, albeit I'm sure the original canon would never have had Quan in attendance in person at the island. Don't forget that Quan Chi wants Sub-Zero dead almost as much as Scorpion does and would therefore make these arrangements. And Shang has GOT to have known that Sub was hired to kill him, and therefore would want someone at the tournament to take Sub out. Scorpion being invited benefits everybody.

But before the fact that Scorpion's resurrection was performed by a villain in the series was ever revealed, this would've been the explanation: In MK1, Scorpion's return from the grave was described as a "reincarnation". He was technically a living Earthrealm warrior again, wandering the world to find Sub-Zero.

And if he was one of Earthrealm's greatest warriors at that time, then bam, he gets the invite.

Cyber Sub-Zero should've never happened.

Well, he did. Now, move on with your life.
I got over the whole Freddy deal, and I was outraged by it at first, but now I have accepted that he's there and that there's nothing I can do about it.