Proove, please. I recently translated all Kano's biographies and endings and there were no mention of him being used by Shang in order to lure Sonya on the island. At least in old canon.
Maybe it was mentioned in the MK1 comic, but I vaguely remember that it was not the case. The only version of MK that clearly stated that Shang used Kano to lure Sonya - was the first movie. And it was implied in MK9.


As much as plausible it sounds, its still a speculation.


Ditto.
I got over MKvsDC existence and MKA being what it is. And I'm still MK fan with the hope for the best.

This trading card came out in 1992, which you will note is the year the first game came out, and 3 years before the movie did.

I suppose you can go the "trading cards aren't canon" route with your argument, but I'm going to disagree in this instance because I think it's a bit self-evident that Midway/Tobias wrote this or told them what it should say since it has all the other information straight out of his game-bio correct, like height, weight, and nationality (before it was retconned to Australia by the movie, that is.), and because a simple trading card company would not have the plot knowledge or reason to make up their own story elements to add onto the card.



And? They didn't say outright how/why Scorpion was invited in his bio, but they DO pretty clearly establish in other parts of the game that tournament attendance is invite-only. Sonya being captured for trespassing is one example, another is how the Shaolin are only permitted to send one representative and Liu had to petition for the spot, that's canonically in the MK1 comic, and was later used by Shaolin Monks to give Kung Lao more backstory and establish a rivalry between him and Liu. Shang invites Raiden in person. Like I said, the only way most of the humans at the tournament like Johnny and Kano would've ever even heard that it exists is by Shang inviting them. I don't understand why we're even arguing this, it's like you're trying to tell me the sky is green.

I will not.
I never knew about existence of those cards, to begin with.
I put such things under "could be canon" label. Since it not outright contradict anything, but there is no definite proove that it is canon.
Besides such important information should have been mentioned in his game Bio or at least in MK1 comic book (or in MK2 comic book) , which largely elaborated on the first game backstory. But there was nothing about it. And putting such improtant peace of information (that essentially states that Kano is Shang's ally) on some Trading Card is quite strange.
Besides, continuing this line of thought about Kano and Shang being an allies - isn't it strange that Kano was taken prisoner by Kahn during Outwrold tournament? I mean, Shang was very much there and, if Kano was his ally, he could talk Kahn into releasing him. Instead of this Kano didn't join the rank of Outwrolders until before invasion, after he once again escaped Sonya and Earthrealm.

In the end it is most likely that Kano was invited by Tsung to lure Sonya on the island, since it was like that in the first movie, which used some background information from the games and even from the development state of MK1 (like Kitana being present during first tournament and her being in love with Kang). But still...

On interesting, it was never said that Kano was allu of Shang in his MKvsDC bio, which used many information form MK1 and MK3. I don't remember if he was connected to Shang in game story, so maybe this detail was once again skipped in his biography.


And it's still strange to see how Sub-Zero being invited to the tournament by his supposed target.
Actually it would be much easier and logicaly to assume that Shang invited him and then somebody, who khew that Bi Han will be on the competition, hired him to kill Shang. But it would be like this Kano TC - it very logical, but is it 100% canon?

I agree, but on the other hand, the bios didn't have a lot of space for text back in the arcade, they had to be pretty brief. And the comic was only a single issue, with a lot of stuff to cover, so it's kind of understandable for such details to be left for side material to expand upon. Tobias and Vogel have both also been known to divulge minor story details or character motivations that simply weren't spelled out blatantly but fans weren't sure of because they were perhaps too subtle in things like interviews.


They're not allies, Shang just used one competitor to get another competitor to show up. At the end of the day, Kano's just another of "the world's greatest fighters" who could potentially win the tournament, defeat Goro, and cause Earthrealm to be saved, that Shang wants to see defeated and steal his soul. Just like anybody else there.
It just happened that this particular fighter was being chased by another fighter who was supposed to be there, but wouldn't have showed up otherwise because it's not like Sonya is gonna give a shit about a kung fu competition.
Although...the argument could be made that Shang ONLY invited Kano to get Sonya to come, and Kano isn't actually one of the world's greatest. But I suppose there are Kano fans out there who would then cry about calling their boy weak.



The fact that the tournament was invite-only is and always has been canon. It's brought up outright for several other characters, as I said, so seeing it brought up with Kano and Scorpion too is unnecessary. We don't need to actually see every single character get their invite.

And the point that started this discussion: the fact that there's nothing about the scene where Shang invites Sub in Mythologies that actually contradicts or retcons Sub's MK1 bio, is still true.

That's good enough for me.

That's a valid point I agree with.


Ok, that's logical too.
And I never see Kano as one of the best fighters in the world. More like talented and lucky thug, but certainly not as good as Sub-Zero or Liu Kang. So him being invited by Shang to the tournament to lure Sonya, kind of explains what he is doing among best of the best. As MK9 does too.


OK.
Still there is some missing information there, that leaves room for some speculation. But generally I agree with you on that matter.

I think I should put this day on calendar...Did you guys actually AGREED on something? :)

I'm a little shocked myself, lol.

You guys are too cute for words. ^^

I just played through the Story Mode again, actually... and I still wish Raiden did some more fighting for preventing Subbie getting kidnapped. But then I realized something.

Raiden makes mistakes. ALOT of mistakes. And I think he's alot more human than he would admit. I don't think Raiden likes the Lin Kuei and especially not Subbie due to the whole Mythologies events. So he allowed Subbie to be kidnapped. I know, the Subbie being kidnapped isn't the same Subbie who was in Mythologies, but I don't think Raiden cared about that.

Raiden saw the misery of Smoke in the precog flash and took pity on him, but he didn't have much pity for Subbie, and thus he chose to rescue Smoke and not Subbie.

It's just speculations and theories though.

Well,if he couldn't detect them,how did he even know they were there? And keep in mind,this is the OT chronology,the one where the Lin Kuei have nothing to do with Shao Kahn.

Shadaloo is onto something - there has to be an instance of Kahn's forces actually encountering the cyborgs before deciding that they are a threat.


The way you make it sound,Smoke managed to reawaken his soul on his own,without Sub-Zero's help. That doesn't sound right. The two have to actually fight each other at some point in time.

Not to mention that from a storytelling perspective,there's really not a lot of sense in sending out three killer cyborgs at the same time unless there is a scene later on with all three of them attacking their target all at once.


Well,like I said before,Stryker didn't originally start off as a mix between John McClane and the guy from Speed either.


As far as I know,Razor has his own chronology that he's working on. You guys should consider cooperating.


Waitwaitwait,hold on.

So,Shang invites Sub to the tournament because he is contractually obligated to invite Earthrealm's greatest. He invites Scorp because Quan Chi asks him to.

Scorpion thinks he's attending the tournament so he could finally take vengeance on Sub for murdering him in cold blood (correct me if I'm wrong,but in the old chronology,Scorpion didn't connect any of the Sub-Zeros to the deaths of his family and clan until MK4). However,the real reason he is there is because QUAN CHI wants Sub-Zero dead so he could finally have that undead wraith servant he always wanted.

At the same time,Quan Chi figures that Shang knows too much about his and Shinnok's plans,so knowing that Sub-Zero will be invited to the tournament anyway,he secretly hires him to assassinate Shang. I mean,the old canon never explicitly stated the name of Sub-Zero's mysterious client,but really,there's no one else it could really be but Quan.


Am I getting all that right so far? If so,I have a question:

Why would you assume that Shang knows that Sub-Zero was hired to assassinate him?


Well,as Sumac has pointed out,Raiden never received any premonitions about Kuai Lang,because nothing bad really happened to him in the old timeline that had to be prevented. So there was no pressing need to help him.

I just knew they were going to turn him into a cyborg. I was indifferent to it, it's a new plot twist to his character and this is coming from a Sub Zero fan . I don't think it will be permanent, it will piss off way too many fans. But however when he comes back human, he will probably like in his Human MK 9 ending, fight in the shadows and will not reform the Lin Kuei. Heck, he'll form his own clan in the new timeline.

I see there was a discussion of plot holes about MK9's Story Mode. I don't remember Rayden ever having a amulet, I looked at the costumes for DA and Deception and he didn't have on. I looked at it carefully and if he did, I'll consider myself legally blind. Well, I liked MK9's gameplay but Story Mode I found good, but more bad plotholes that probably have been mentioned.

Well don't forget that Kahn had squads of goons scouring the ends of the earth to find and kill any and every human who survived the world-soul-steal. The Extermination Squads surely ran into the cyborgs eventually.


Mythologies was the first mention of Scorpion's family being dead too, and him thinking Sub-Zero/the Lin Kuei did it. In MK1 thru 3, Scorp was only out to avenge himself.

I'm just speculating, but I just don't believe being an assassination target would escape Shang's notice. The sorcerers in MK are crafty and seem like the personality-type that would want to have plans for or know everything about their enemies, like Batman. It's likely the result of having networks of spies working for them, but it's also certainly possible that at the very least, that "I can see into your soul" ability he has in the movie is something he can do in the games too.

I imagine he'd need a power like that, a trick that allows him to sense things about people, like assessing the skills and maybe even reading the minds or motives of people in order to find the world's greatest fighters he needs to invite. I mean it's not like the Elder Gods are just going to give him a list of names, lol.

T-Rex,let me applaud you )

I ALWAYS had suspicions that mysterious client of Lin Kuei would be Quan Chi. I proposed that idea here that Shinnok and Quan Chi didn't need for Shang to know too much,he would become a potential threat.

There is definitely ONE good thing for me from MK9 Story Mode. That whole idea of Elder Gods FINALLY doing something to stop illegal merging of the realms unlike MK3 is very good idea. Especially,it being SHINNOK's plan,not Quan Chi's. Because being former Elder God himself,he would know all this stuff. And finally with Earth half-destroyed and Outworld without his leader,they now can attack.

In MK3,however,the only means for Quan Chi and Shinnok to get rid of Shao Kahn were Noob Saibot and Earth warriors. In case Earth warriors fail,I understand,they buffed Noob Saibot up a little,but him taking down Shao Kahn himself,especially who got stronger with conquering of Earth,doesn't fit right with me. In MK9,Quan Chi and Shinnok seem more strategic and organized,but of course,with the expense of Shao Kahn and Shang Tsung (but in MK universe Shinnok and Quan Chi were more global and dangerous threat not only to Earth,but the whole universe,am I right? )

I just realized that it's entirely possible that Kabal and Stryker were just two of the possible candidates for the position of the defenders of Earthrealm that were scoped out by the White Lotus Society. I mean,it's their actual job,after all - to always be on the lookout for warriors strong enough to repel the Outworld invaders. I don't know about Kabal,but it's understandable that NYC's hero cop would get their attention.

Smoke ending tells that he was pursued by Kahn's warriors. It is unknown, if it was for retalition of his earlier attack on them or they just saw him as an enemy "by default". But his ending seemingly implies that he was just attacked.
I assume that somehow Kahn knew about cyborgs as soon as invasion started and clearly regarded them as enemies. Maybe because of his inability to consume souls, that they didn't had.
Or more likely, just as Razor suggested, Exterminators just eventually run into cyborgs and, having orders to kill everyone, attacked them.


I don't think that fight between Smoke and Sub-Zero is a neccessary thing. Yeah, I know, DRAMA and DEEP STUFF...But there were enough of this in MK3. Besides, if you still want them fight in this story, Smoke still could've fought Sub-Zero, since he is only partially out of Lin Kuei control. He sees his primary target, lose control over his body and attack Sub-Zero. They fight briefly until Sub-Zero subdues Smoke and with his advice, disable Lin Kuei programming for good. But actually Sub-Zero's ending in MK3 sounds more like a confirmation of Smoke's ending.
I mean, if they actually have fought, than one of their endings would mention it. But both Smoke's and Sub-Zero's endings sounds like Sub just helped Smoke without much trouble from his side. Nothing in them mentions "epic clash" or "big battle" like MK endings like to do, when it's stuff happens.


But he is still easily recognizable and have several trademark moves from the past. What you suggest in regards of Hsu Hao appearance - is to practically remade him from scratch. In my book it amounts to creating essentially a new character alltogether.


Probabaly Bi Han was hired to kill Shang after he was invited to the tournament. I'd go so far to assume that it was the reason why he was hired in the first place - because he would be present in the same place as Shang Tsung and will remove any potential trouble with sneaking upon the island lost between the worlds.
Why do you need to hire someone to do that, if you already have reliable killer, who 100% will be present in the place you need him to be?

I'm sure it's inevitable! Razor and I seem to have different views every so often about which way X event went, but our discussions usually seem to bear fruit and bring new insights.

I finished compiling info on Mythologies today. It's amazing the few tidbits you can find here and there across both N64 and PSX versions.

My aim is to have version 1.0 of this thing up before the end of January, maybe sooner. I'm pretty sure there's going to be a huge discussion, which I invite all those knowledgeable in MK lore to participate in, yourself included. :D

Coolies on you Shadaloo if you actually complete the project as compiling an accurate, comprehensive timeline of canon events is no easy feat (despite it being much needed).

I tried poking Razor with a stick for motivation on a similar project but he just growled at me and muttered something about the new timeline being dogshit and then lumbered back into his cave. Maybe if he sees his shadow this year...

I still wish Raiden did anything.



This begs the question of whether Mythologies is even a thing in the new timeline.

When Bi-Han dies, Raiden is all like "what a waste, he once saved the world from Quan Chi and Shinnok." So Mythologies...or some version of it, still happened in the Rebootverse.

It's too bad it wasn't expanded upon. I'd be interested to see what changed during the events of Mythologies to make Raiden so indifferent to Sub 1's death and Sub 2's capture.

I don't see the old timeline Raiden reacting very differently to Bi-Han's death.

He told the dude "Look, you've been doing evil, you'll go to hell when you die, but now that you know, you can change your ways" and two whole years later, the motherfucker still hadn't changed a damn thing. How else can you react to that other than "Aww, that's a shame. Totally saw it coming...but still, a shame. Oh well, moving on." Besides, he even tried to talk Scorpion out of killing him. What more could he do, teleport to Hell and interfere in the match?

And apparently the only reason he lets Kuai get captured is he was too fucking scared to make a move in front of Kahn - which is totally out of character for ANY version of Raiden, especially to do nothing when someone is violating the rules of the tournament by interfering in the middle of a match like the cyborgs were, but still, that seems to be what the game wants us to believe, not that he didn't care about Sub-Zero.

did any one suggest that they let the older become noob, younger become grandmaster sub and just have lin kuei make a full on terminator style robot with ice powers like hydro and send him after sub.

During the old time line? They didn't necessarily let Bi-Han become Noob Saibot because that was out of their hands. Please, pay attention to your grammar. Hydro as in Malibu comics, Mortal Kombat: Legacy or in just your vision? Well there was a connection between Cyber Sub-Zero and the Legacy Hydro, both being blue and somewhat additional (3rd) ninjas, who had a different destinies compared to Ketchup and Mustard.

You know I actually agree with BigSkye though.

If we could go back in time and do all of this a different way I would probably just introduce a blue ice wielding cyborg as Hydro. It would happen like this. The old storyline where Smoke and Sub-Zero fight Sektor and Cyrax would still take place, except for Raiden interferes this time around and saves both. Sub-zero and Smoke both then proceed to beat the living hell out of Sektor so bad once Raiden interferes that he goes back and has a cyborg created that can counter Sub-Zero's ice powers with his own.

Then just have Bi-Han and Kuai Liang keep their old storyline's somewhat in tact. Have Hydro go on the hunt and attempt to kill Kuai Liang and everything's good. Cyber Sub-Zero should never have been his name. Cyber + Sub-Zero in my mind should neve have been an idea in the first place though. Quite honestly once someone even threw that out I feel like someone on the creative team should have had the balls to say Ummmm, hell no.lol.

I would love Cyber Sub-Zero and honestly he would be my third after sub-zero and jade if only I didn't know that he is my favorite character ever locked inside of a shell. If his name was hydro though Id be playing his arse left and right. Just goes to show that they could have pulled this off in a way were no one would be complaining and people wouldn't be hating on it being sub-zero. I'm just saying. It would be hard for even the biggest cyber sub-zero fan to oppose. If he would have been named hydro and added to the roster as a new character then he would have came across ten times better and most likely with more fans. JMO though.

well i meant the "Writers would let sub....." not the lin kuei.

I like that idea a bit, what about smoke??

I would have smoke become a cyborg still, because that is part of his story of not wanting to be a cyborg. then send sektor after subs and then cyrax. after sub beats both of them, the lin kuei would then send "hydro". After a brutal fight, hydro would go for the killing blow. subs would scream and cyborg smoke would remember him slightly. smoke would knock hydro out from behind and save subs.

smoke's journey would have him trying to become human again, with sub's aid, while fighting his machine side. maybe the lin kuei could use subs dna to help make hydro too....