And is this relevant?

Y'all Y'all Y'all Y'all Y'all Y'all

Do you have any real proof to back that up?

Is McDonalds not paying you enough John?

I'm pretty sure Boon had a hand in creating the game. He wouldn't always be called "Co-Creator" if he created like 2%

hey, he is called CO-Creator, if he only made 2% then Tobias should be the CREATOR (note: im to lazy to bolden my text)

what 2% DID he conceive then?

Ed Boon's always been credited as the co-creator of the series before John Tobias left Midway, so LT is right about that. I have no clue about how much Ed Boon did, but he must've done something significant to get co-creator credit though.

And we care ... ... why? who cares. and do you have info to back that up anyway?

The fudge supply code. You know in MK2, that was totally his..

One of the Lead Programmers (1:10 - about 2:30seconds in) He turns the pictures into a playable game. All the sprites, backgrounds, and all that.

That vid is old so, what I'm betting now, is that he's the best, or the highest paid and most experienced programmer for Mortal Kombat.

I'd guess that he's dealing with some of the vendors now too. He can likely hire and fire people, gets the motion capture stuff together the same way they used to get the actors together back in that vid. He's probably getting paid more for putting things together more than programming anymore. He makes sure the schedule is maintained and all the objectives are met.

"Project Lead" could also indicate that he has some control over who gets paid what. Boon himself is probably salaried around 250-500 thousand a year. Programmers get paid alot a frickin money, especially if the project they're apart of is successful. And even more so if they're the creator. They start out at around 50-75 grand a year.

Um...so that's more than 2%. If he wasn't there, we wouldn't have a game to play...in it's essence really.

I read somewhere that Tobias was the main designer while Boon was the main programmer.

A designer is the one who comes up with the stories and artwork and concepts, etc.

I do think Tobias put more ideas into the creation of Mortal Kombat than Boon because as soon as he left MK, character designs starting become shitty and lame as hell.

I'm sure the genius behind Sindel's design was John, btw. The only cool characters boon has come up with that I know of are a "purple" ninja because they "didn't have a purple-colored ninja yet," and Frost who is just a female of a blue ninja with ice powers.

Those ideas are very unoriginal and they tell me that he's not very creative, which makes sense that Tobias was the real genius behind MK's spectacular classic days.

Anybody can program, but creative ideas are not something people can go to school for and be good at like that.

I am so sick of people badmouthing Deadly Alliance and Deception creatively. For one thing, DA's Konquest/training mode has more storyline information in it that the first four MKs combined. Furthermore...
Kenshi, Mavado, Li Mei, Drahmin, Nitara, Havik, Ashrah, Kira, Onaga.

Noob = Elder Sub-Zero, Dark Raiden, Zombie Liu, Ermac as a hero.

Everything I just listed was a GOOD idea or original character created in the Vogel era. And those are just a sample, I could go on. So you can take your "nothing good came after Tobias left" garbage and shove it.

completely agreed but does anyone know what tobias is doing nowadays?

Drinking.


... And maybe trying to date a lesbian... But mostly drinking.
Shame about Tao Feng. Say what you will about the game, but I would've liked to have seen how it might have developed in the same way MK made a massive leap conceptually from the first, to the second game.
Who knows? Maybe we would've gotten the "real" Tao Feng in Tao Feng Too!

I'm surprised it took so long for someone to split the guys between design and programming.

I know he stole and cleverly took things from real life, other mythologies and movies to make a game. Anyone watch Big Trouble in Little China? Anyone ever hear of the real army they found in a tomb after an earth quake?

...did you seriously add Kira, who is very obviously just a female version of Kano, to a list of original characters?

That is hilarious.

Kira has a completely different storyline and personality from Kano.

Kano is an opportunistic thug who, in any given fight, will switch to the winning side in a heartbeat because he has no standards or values and cares only about himself.

Kira is a devout, zealous follower in a specific philosophy. She practices survival of the fittest and has the very clear goal of subjecting the entire world to Anarchy, the absence of law.
Unlike Kano, she's a disciplined warrior who believes in something bigger than herself and sticks to her principles. Also unlike Kano, she's a follower, not a leader. And unlike most of the "underling" characters in Mortal Kombat, she has no desire to usurp control from Kabal. She's genuinely devoted to him and does what she does for the greater good of the clan.
And that alone makes her unique in a universe where, just for example, every single member of Kahn's OWN army wanted to turn on him in their MK3 endings.

I also give her originality points for being the only red haired character in Mortal Kombat. Amazing that it took them 6 games to create one...

Just because you're a shallow person who judges every character by their moves list and nothing else doesn't mean everyone else has to stoop to the same childish level. I'd say your opinion is the "hilarious" one, but ignorance isn't funny to me.

You crack me up, dude.

Nine out of ten, easily.

I'm just gonna assume that's your way of saying "I can't admit I'm wrong in front of all these people, so instead I'll pretend to make fun of you and hope it fools everyone and I can keep my dignity".

Haha, oh wow. You're a pretty funny guy. I'll tell you why your defense of Kira being original is silly. The entire problem behind your defense is that you're interpreting original depth for Kira that is simply not indentifiable with her. In other words, everything that you seem to note as original about Kira simply does not exist, and if it does exist, it's already in a more established character.

You called her a devout, zealous follower of anarchic philosophy. Really? I assume you get that from "We will cause the downfall of civilization itself and live in a world of blessed anarchy." As you already acknowledged, she's following Kabal's principles, who is following -- guess who? -- Havik's. Yeah. What you seem to like about Kira is actually just a hand-me-down from Havik's story that was passed through from Kabal. Sounds to me that you think Havik is original, not Kira, and you've already regarded Havik as original.

In that same sentence you also said she practices survival of the fittest. Well, I think most people would agree that Kano is easily the character that would be quite willing to do anything in order to survive. That's a testament to his character in almost every game he's been in. He'll switch to whichever side he feels he has the best chance of surviving on. That's an argument that works against you for Kira, not for you, especially considering we've never known of Kira practicing anything like that in comparison to Kano.

Bringing up the endings to Mortal Kombat games is a pretty fruitless source, considering most endings are non-canon to a large degree and are purely for contextual purposes based on gameplay. You seem to want to use them to bring up the fact that most endings with Kano show him becoming a leader of some sort, while in canon, he presents himself as more of a follower with just dreams of grandeur. While on that note, discipline is generally regarded as a form of self-control for obedience. Kano is plenty disciplined considering he follows orders very well.

Then, of course, we have her moveset. Yeah. Self-explanatory. At least she doesn't have a laser eye or anything. Only thing that probably is original is, as you said, her red hair. I certainly wouldn't think her gender or hair color is enough to classify her as original and not a knock-off of Kano.

Though she could be worse. At least she isn't Kobra.

So let me get this straight.

Your argument is "Kira's a clone of Kano because her motivation is the same as Kabal and Havik"?

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

As for your second point, Kano doesn't believe in "survival of the fittest", he believes in "survival of ME, whether I'm fit or not." Kira's philosophy suggests that if she were ever slain, she would accept it as her own fault, that she deserves it for being weak. Does that sound like Kano to you?

In the simplest possible terms, Kano RUNS from fights, Kira does not.
Kano is a coward, an opportunist. He stabs you in the back.
Kira is a soldier. She stabs you from the front.
If you had said "Kira is a clone of Sonya", I might agree. But comparing her to Kano, unless you're only talking about moves, is ridiculous. The only thing they have in common in storyline is the Black Dragon, and Kano's Black Dragon isn't even the same group as Kabal's.
Funny thing, this whole argument started with me listing good ideas of John Vogel's to prove he's not worse than Tobias. You're arguing that the reason Kira isn't a good idea is because she's unoriginal, because she shares moves and motivation with other characters. Gee, when has John Tobias ever done that, right? Funny how Noob Saibot, Sektor, Cyrax, and most importantly Smoke are ALL fan-favorite characters.
Kinda makes me wonder if...*gasp* Kira too could grow into a fan favorite, if only we had more than one game to get to know her in?

I'm saying Kira is not original, not necessairly because she's a clone of Kano (because she is) but because she has no original traits outside of physical design. The point of the Havik paragraph was to show what you think is original in Kira isn't original at all. That's the entire reason why I'm bothering to argue with you: I'm attempting to show you why Kira is not original when you believe that she is.

You're looking for things in Kira's story which simply aren't there. Kira's philosophy doesn't suggest anything like that. You're looking for depth in a shallow puddle. If Kabal decided to rename Black Dragon to Black Clown and everyone was required to dress up in clown costumes and they had to beat everyone to death with whoopee cushions, Kira's story would suggest that she would do it, because her personality traits and story don't amount to anything besides following Kabal and thinking "Killing is awesome!" Not only is that not original it's extremely generic.

I also don't think you know what survival of the fittest means. It's a principle that dictates that the fittest survive. Fittest meaning whatever traits necessary to survive. It doesn't necessarily dictate wanton, bullheaded killing to make sure you don't die.

I understand "survival of the fittest" just fine. My point about it was that a person who truly, truly believes in it has to acknowledge that if they themselves are not fit, they shouldn't survive either, because they are no more special than anyone else.
Thus: if someone beat Kira in a fight, her response would be to (pardon the expression) take it like a man and say "I deserved that".
Unlike Kano, who would scamper like a rat before you could finish him off. And that's the difference between the two of them.
The "wanton, bullheaded" slaughter method you describe is really more Kano's territory. Kira only kills when Kabal tells her to, but you describe her as a bloodthirsty nutcase.

Furthermore, you suggesting Kira is unoriginal because she's made up of other people's traits ignores the fundamental principle that there ARE no original ideas left in the entire universe, and haven't been since before either of us were born. Every SINGLE character in fiction is just an archetype that the author modifies in one way or another.

The originality of the Kira concept comes specifically FROM the fact that she is a mix of two characters who are an unlikely combination: Sonya and Kano.
Again I have to point to the fact that Smoke has nothing going for him that doesn't also belong to someone else, and yet he is fucking beloved.