I think that the throws for guys like Jax and Kung Lao should be related to their martial arts but the guys who don't have a foundation in reality like Scorpion and Raiden should have really over-the-top stuff like some of the throws in Soul Calibur. I don't know much about Hapkido and Moifah so I can't say what kind of throws they do incorporate but I can see Scorpion grabbing a guy by the neck, throwing him in the air, pulling him back with the spear, and before the guy hits the ground, Scorpion would do the teleport kick to his back, landing the guy flat on his stomach. That isn't exactly Hapkido but I think it's Scorpion.

That's what I wanna see!!!

I'll contradict my self a little bit here.

It doesn't have to be totally accurate to the martial art, but at least make it visually stunning. The soul calibur throws are a good example.

The throws in MKD for the most part seem pretty bland and slow IMO. I like the throws in Tao Feng much better.


Other stuff....

I wish Scorpion had his air throw back.

His Take down from MK2 also.


Ummm let’s see....

When watching the Konqrr match videos I noticed that a lot of times characters will react late after being hit or blocking an attack. It’s like the guy punches, then half a second later the opponent reacts. And when blocking, you block an attack then while you have your arm fully extended the opponent goes flying away like the 3 inch punch. It looks wrong and I think they should fix that.

I had thought of something else but I can’t remember what it was now. I’ll post later.



Oh......

Ermac's teleslam if blocked should only go through the lift animation, not the slam animation.

Obviously, he didn't grab the opponent, so why would he do the slam animation if there is nothing to slam????????

To counter the new recovery speed of this move, they could implement running in MK7 or running attacks.


What's with all these ’s that keep showing up? It's getting kind of annoying.

Yes it is. They seem to appear in place of an apostrophe or other punctuation. I get them every now and then but after editing the post and replacing them with whatever should be there it usually stays fixed. You seem to be having the problem a lot more though recently.

Yeah, even if I delete them, they don't go away.

At least the page doesn't turn white when I load up anymore, so that's cool. ---------------------------------
More ideas
If they put in side and back throws in MK7.
I'd like to have some set up moves for side throws.
Like maybe a Round house kick will make the opponent turn sideways in a stun. Then you can do a side throw real quick.
They don't have this in Tekken, but I'll use Kazuya as an example.
He could do a df+2 gut punch, then do a strong left hook that would look similar to Jin's new power hook = f, d, df+2 which could leave the opponent sideways stunned.
(If the df+2 hits as a counter the left hook is guaranteed)
Then real quick, he could do his side throw where he bends the opponent back and elbows them in the neck.
The opponent would recover in time to avoid a back throw.
So if you try, df+2, left hook, ss, back throw. The opponent can duck the throw or get out of it some other way.
That would be original to MK as far as I know.

some other side throw set up moves could be...
Spinning back fist.
Round house kick
Strong hook punch maybe on counter only.
Tekken style parry that pushes the opponent to the side.
A regular stun attack that gives you time to move to the opponent's side and throw.
Teleport

You might even be able to get a side throw off a wall stun.

Like if you do a round house that makes the opponent spin and slam to a wall sideways then you can do a side throw during that sideways wall stun.

The side ways throw could change animation if you do it close to a wall. For example You might grab your opponent's arm, swing them around half a circle and slam them face first to the wall.

That side wall throw could cause the opponent to stumble back and fall leaving you with more options to attack.

There could be a fighter that can use astral projection.


Leave their body mid fight and fight as a ghost. = could be like a super move or something.

I’ll post more on that later.

I could see Noob Saibot doing something like that with creating a clone and using that to fight you kinda like his old move from UMK3.

Its about time this thread got stickied, now hopefully, SOME of these ideas will be seen, and utilized.....:

Ok moves for astral projection.

Noob is a good character for this.

Separate from the body and fight for like 5 seconds. If the ghost is hit it will disappear and you can use your normal guy again.

You can cancel the ghost at any time to fight as the main guy again.

Juggle partner = Like Scorpion's teleport punch but the ghost would teleport and use a different attack. Similar to how Noob smoke juggles. But you can juggle the opponent back towards you similar to how Ermak and Kenshi can.

Possession = like Shang's fatality in MK2, your ghost will go in the opponent and cause them to get dizzy or put their arms down leaving them open for attack.


Charging projection = Something similar to Sub's Ram or Night wolves shoulder attack, but it would be the ghost instead and it could be something like a sliding right elbow to the stomach, a sliding kick, or a flying throw like Kai's throw in MK4 or Hayate's uf+BLK+P in DOA3. It could also throw the opponent back towards you like Noob's f,f+HP in MKT.

Trespass = the ghost would run through the opponent making them stumble back like after you block one of kahn's attacks.



A combo with him could be Launch, 3-4 juggle hit's finish with a charging projection (slide) The slide makes the opponent flip over like always in MK. You can follow that up with the normal guy by doing a flying kick or some other long range attack. Maybe finish it with a cool looking kick like Whoarang's f, d, df+4 or Lee's uf+3+4 in T5. It's the same flying spin kick as before but hit's mid now.

This fighter would be fast and tricky kind of like Noob Smoke.

Some of his normal combos will automatically use the ghost.

sup yall..great shit tran,ttt,bleed and the rest.

yo tony i got ur pm for a long time ago, and i just wanna say i'd be honored if im a part of it. i wont say what it is because im not sure if u want me to.

also, guys i wanted to contribute to this whole "enlightment" movement, so it'd be cool if yall check out my topic about updating specials and tell me what ya'll think.

I don't know if anyone regularly plays as Yoshimitsu but his side throw with his own clone is something I'd like to see, Double Noob Scythe style

On another note I saw the bad news today that Heihachi has broken moves in T5

Hey, Verse, long time no see. Yeah, it's cool about the book. No reason to keep all hush hush about it but thanks for caring . I PMed you prematurely about it anyway since my publishing deal fell through like the next day. The publisher turned out not to be a good one so I have to do the better, though slower, method and go through a literary agent. Since I'm talking about it now, though, I may as well explain myself here to everyone. I wrote a book about the video game industry and am trying to get it published. It's designed to be an introductory analysis of games, developers, genres, etc. from the conception of the industry back in the fifties to present day. I have a whole chapter dedicated to the fighting game craze where I do some in depth analysis for every major fighting game and some that aren't so major. MK alone has twenty pages dedicated to it. I planned on giving credits to Versatile, Satyagraha, Bleed, HDTran, RayRokka, Colguile, FLStyle, StarwinderBeta, MrSchpfmut, and Cartmansp. I was going to try to send out PMs asking for permission to everyone who I learned a lot from and want to give note to in the book. And sorry if I missed anyone but I'll be sure to make a more complete list once I do the credits section. Once a literary agent picks me up (I think I have one who's showing some interest) I'll send out the messages.



Yeah, that does suck. From what I hear he has a jab punisher that guarantees around 50% damage. That's pretty lame. I heard that this was actually a programming glitch, though, and not a design one. Apparently the game always recognizes the move as CH even if it isn't and that's why it's so screwed up. Hopefully that got fixed in the PS2 version.

Hmm on the astoral projection front, anyone giving some power like this to Kenshi in a way? Scorpion could have it in a way by maybe teleporting his punches. Another good person to have it would be Johnny Cage.

I think it would work ok with Jonny Cage, Noob, or a new fighter.

Thanks Tony, good luck with the book! Keep up the awesome work in this thread guys. Peace

mkd does need its improvements but games like tekken soul caliber and so on do require u to think more than button pressing and do have more depth in the gameplay, however if they made mk play like tekken or dOA and so on i would not buy it mk is not really a game of thinking imensely while in battle its a game of reflexs and speed and i am not mad at the gameplay of either mkd or mkda they are what i would have thought they would become if not better . i put mks gameplay in a totally different group ive played tekken all versions alot and know how the system works its cool how its very 3d as far as the fighting but dosnt keep my attention

So what's the problem, then? MK needs improvements, lots of them, so no arguement there.



Actually, nobody is advocating making MK like any other game. It's just that every other game follows certain "regulations" if you will while MK does not. Imagine driving on the wrong side of the road. It'd be dumb to say that you don't want to drive correctly just to not be like everybody else. Sometimes conformity is a good thing. Tekken and Soul Calibur are nothing alike but they use some universal conventions. Hamlet and Clifford: The Big Red Dog aren't anything alike either but they are both written using letters, words, punctuation, spaces, etc. That's kind of what fighting games are like. Right now, MK isn't a thinking game. It's a game about using four moves over and over. Watch a good player use Dairou and tell me that's about thinking, reflexes, and speed. It's about Tombstone Drop. That's it.



Why aren't you mad at the gameplay the new MKs have? When half the characters have infinite combos, corner traps, single moves that can be abused over and over (ala Tombstone Drop), glitches galore (ala float jumping), and other just wacky stuff you'd be crazy not to be pissed. You, me, everyone here paid good money for this game. We should expect better. It's not like it was a free gift from Midway. They got our cash for this. Why suck up to Boon and Co. if you're paying them? Would you pay a carpenter who forgot to put up a fourth wall in your house? Maybe, but I'm sure you wouldn't give him a thumbs up for trying his best.

What is more fun about MK's fighting engine than Tekken's fighting engine?
I’m talking about the actual fighting, not the fatalities or mini games.


Tekken has pretty much everything MK has only better.

The only thing I like in MK better is the walking animations and fireballs.


The problem is that to have a good working fighting game, you can't just put stuff out with little thought. Moves need to have special uses and be edited so they aren't cheap or useless. There needs to be a way around everything unless it's not too overpowering.

Tekken does this and that's why the game play is better. In MKD it seems like everything was just put on there just for the heck of it. No real though as to what it's used for or a way around it. That's what makes the game play seem horrible to someone who understands these basic concepts.

Like Tony said, these are just the basics. Tekken is like 1+1 = 2, MK is like 1+1 = 7. One is logical and the other isn't, one works and the other doesn't.

for a second there I thought I was gonna have to rip the guys post apart, luckily it was done for me.

I'm actually very impressed with how Shaolin Monks has a fighting engine (that was cough cough stolen err borrowed see Spider-Man 2 and Prince of Persia). Heres hoping now that Ed is gonna impliment something along the styles.

In fact, is anyone for stipping off the side games and the konquest? Leave the practice mode in, but then have it like DOA where you can practice against whomever. You can put the story on the inside of the instruction booklet, I'm here to fight.

The fighting in Shaolin munks looks pretty good.


I couldn't care less about a konquest mode or whatever.

I just want to fight.

That's different for everybody though.

I have a "the more the merrier" mindset when it comes to fighting games mainly because I don't always have someone to play against and it's nice to have other things to do. I have fighting games that I've barely played other people in when they came out let alone now. Some examples are both Tobals (admittedly I got them late), Tao Feng, Killer Instinct Gold, Guilty Gear X, MK: Trilogy and I just bought Toshinden 2 a few days ago and probably won't have anyone to play with. I've put off buying VF4:EVO because I really don't have anyone to play. That's why I hope this online thing takes off really quickly and developers find a way to make it lag free on games like Tekken and VF. So, yeah, if a development team wants to add other modes and junk to a fighter then more power to them so long as it doesn't detract from the main engine. I know a fighter can't be really enjoyed if you only play by yourself but where the hell am I going to find someone to play Tobal? Out of all my friends, very few of them like fighting games as much as I do. Mostly we play Smash Bros. Melee, Soul Calibur, and Tekken.

It just felt like MKD was: Ohhh look. We got chess and puzzle. RPGish Konquest!

Umm what about the fighting?

RPG CONQUEST!

What about the main reason play Mortal KOMBAT?

Oh yeah the boobs bounce

ED BOON LISTEN!

Umm we finally finished MKDA and tacked on a few things to distract you. Okay you happy? Please don't away my playboy models. I'm very lonely

Maybe I'll take 1 or 2, for now. I'll return them and change them out every 30 minutes.

Take my condoms

Wow they have dragons on them...

Hey, everyone!
First of all, thank you guys for this thread. A lot of threads out there are worth reading but something like this is worth my humble two cents!
I've played Kombat since the first one all those years ago and I've almost all of them ever since but looking back, today, and before that, I remember the exact moment when I got hooked to this series; It was shortly after my local arcade got MK1, and I must say I didn ́t give a flying f*** about fighting games at the time, and this dude had just lost to CPU Scorpion one the first or second fight, when something got my attention: the screen darkened, Scorpion took his mask off and there was a skull underneath it! And he leans forward pukes fire from his skeletal mouth and burns the other character to death!!! I couldn't believe it! I called my unwary friends, and I was nearly screaming: "He just killed that guy, he burned him to death..." After that I played MK almost every single day until MK2 came out. And then I played MK2 almost5bevery single day, until VF got to my arcade. But I still played MK2. And then Tekken came out. I perferred it to VF, but I liked MK2 (and MK1) even more, until a fine afternoon when I was playing Tekken and Anna broke (Nina's) arms three times in a multi-link throw. After that, how can I put it.... I just hoped that the next MK would beat tekken's ass in terms of gameplay and innovation.
And, Ed Boon and the rest of MK Team, I AM STILL WAITING THAT THE NEXT MK CAN RAPE TEKKEN'S ASS!

Anyway, as I said before, thanks guys for this thread, especially you, HDTran. I rarely take the time to go around forums reading stuff, much less write on them, but I always come up to the conclusion that a lot of people out there think similarly to me.
I went round and round in my head, thinking about what could make this game a contender, what to improve and what to include, and I sometimes get to a point when i'm thinking: "Hell, this way all end up wishing MK to be a Tekken/SoulCalibur, with fatalities!" And I'm wrong. MK has been in the forefront with every single game the has come out. There's always a new breaking- through concept in MK games, and most of the time all we see is those concepts being developed to it's full potential in other games.
I don't think there's any need to mention the whole Fatality concept, Stage or otherwise, but what about all the hype around Tekken 5's new air throws? If MK7 has air throws will that be copying Tekken or SC or DOA? No, because it was done before back in MK2 with Jax and Scorpion. What about Multi-hit Throws? Wasn't it done before, again in MK2 with Jax? And all those other really interesting new concepts like Scorpion ́s Spear that is a projectile like the fireballs in Street Fighter, but with such uniqueness to it, being able to pull the opp back to him and land a free hit. Same for the ice ball. And all the diversity in MK2: Jax played so differently than other characters, Reptile getting invisible, Shang Tsung turning into other characters and super cool Baraka or Goro! MK games need more of this and needs more of the stuff in other good games out there. Do you really think that Tekken is so damn original and taking ideas or concepts from it to copying? Did anyone ever compare Yoshimitsu in Tekken 2 to Raiden? The big hat, the teleporting and the Shark Attack/Torpedo move similarities? What about Paul and Akira in the first games? Don't some of their moves look so similar? They are almost like Ryu and Ken with less palette swaping. Counters/Reversals in MK7!! Nooo! It's gonna look like Tekken! Pai had reversals since the first VF! Who copied who?
About weapon fighting: Some people don't seem to remeber clearly, but weapons have been in MK games since MK3 (MK2 or even MK1 if you'd prefer). Kabal, Milenna, Jade, Kitana, Stryker and even Scorpion used weapons in combat without involving them being thrown at each other. They would only appear in combos or as projectiles but they're there. And there is already a hint of Style changing/branching in those days, otherwise, why wouldn't Stryker carry is bat around the whole time? Because the game was primarily based on hand-to-hand combat.
Still on the subject of weapons I'm puzzled as to why aren't good ideas developed further, and are simply forgotten: Weapon moves and fighting (with them) in MK4 is, I think; crap, but the good thing about them was that you could pick them up from the floor and use them even if they weren't originally yours! How f****** cool is that? Anyone could fight with Sonya's Pizza Slicer or Quan Chi's Swiss Army Knife! Wow!!! Why can't we do that now in MKDA or MKD? And why can't we throw them either? And all the crap lying around the stages in MK4? Isn't that interacting with the stage? Quan Chi's ultra cool and excellently thought Weapon Stealing move gone?
Another gem of creativity, and gore, the Impaling abitity of certain weapons in MKDA, gone too. Why? Another one is the reversal; super cheap, and only cheap because there are NO REAL THROWS in MKDA. So no fancy reversal like in Tekken, VF or DOA. Just cheeze that spells doom for MKDA combat strategy. Good thing they didn't keep it, bad thing they didn't fix it.
Anyway, been beating down the MK Team for too long but it's my own fault that I end up buying every single one of their games as soon as their out.
I probably should post another message with encouraging ideas next time and maybe keep it a bit shorter, too!
Then again, maybe not.

Hang in there, guys!

Damn these guys and the MK feel!
When are you people gonna wake up?
When did the MK series have a FEEL? Chose a game, any 3D game out there and replace all the characters with Dural from VF! Start messing about with the controls until you find something like Tile Spliter and you know it's probably Paul or Heihachi from Tekken. Choose a guy with a stick and soon enough you'll realize it's Kilik or Seung Mina from Soul Calibur. Find some cool Ninja moves and you'll probably get Kage or Hayabusa or Raven. You'll find out soon enough. If you know the moves well, you could probably find out which installment of a certain game you're playing. But then you find a Flying Kick and you'll go ???? It's Liu Kang or is it Sonya? MKDA or MKD? Oh! Just found out a Cannon Ball kind of move.... Is it Kano's or maybe Kira's or even Jarek's. Which MK is this? MK4, MKDA or MKD?
Moves and weapons go around like someone passing a joint, styles change for no apparent reason, Raiden teleports and does torpedo in one game but doesn't in the next... Where's the MK feel? Let's ressuscitate the MK series with MKDA! We're gonna take a more realistic approach to the fighting in itself so let's get rid of the too fantastic moves: no teleports or fancy flying around. But we have to keep the fireballs, the weapons that appear out of thin air and fucking Li Mei with that invisible crane hook up her pants, punching in the air!!!!
Fuck the MK feel!
And fuck realism!
MK4 - Not realistic: having a draw-out-weapon move in the middle of a combo or otherwise, not realistic. Getting hit in the nuts and droping it on the floor, not realistic! Other guy coming up and picking the weapon, fighting with it and use it's moves, not realistic! - No good for MKDA!

MKDA - Impaling your enemy and leaving the weapon there, where it hurts, thus losing your weapon for the rest of the round and having to rely on your hand-to-hand skills, not realistic! And not good ! At least for MKD!

This the stuff, guys! This is the MK feel! New concepts of gameplay, things that haven't been done before and that are unique to MK alone. And where are they now?! In the toilet, down the drain.
Implementing the stuff that has been mentiond in this thread is not copying or turning MK into Tekken or whatever. But some things are copying and it doesn't seem to bother anyone:
-Multiple Styles/Style branching Combos - >>>> Lei Woolong !!!!!!!!
-Kai's handstand stance - >>>> Eddy Gordo !!!!!!!!!
(On the multiple styles I may not have been fair, because I own a lot of Kung Fu movies from the 70's and 80's and not only did I found the inspiration for almost the entire cast of MK1 and maybe others, but also the feel of MKDA's multiple fighting styles as some of the feel that's in those movies too. Heck, Lei is the spirit of Jackie Chan in those days!)

Another aspect that doesn't seem to permeate through the heads of MK's development team is that of incrementatoin on good creative ideas:
MK3, Sindel: Flying Stance - Good! Abilty to move (2D): Good! Various options from it: No! Bad!
MKD, Sindel Flying Stance: No! Bad! (She forgot how to) Ermac: Flying Stance: Yes, Good! Ability to move (2D or 3D) and options from it: NO! BAD, BAD, BAD!!!
Tekken 5, Yoshimitsu: Dragonfly: (Where have I seen something like that before???): Good, good, good! Options from it: A lot more than any MK's Stance, which is good! Ways to get into it: A lot! Properties for the moves out of it: A lot, and good! Ability to move: don't know yet cause the game's not on sale here yet in the UK, nor do I know if it's in an arcade, but probably good.

So why are other games better than MK? Because they expand! They have one good idea and they turn and twist and make the most out of it, even if it takes them 2 or 3 installements to do it, while with MK, there's always something new and good and with lots of potential that gets discarded on the following game!
That's what sucks mainly about MK games, the inability to take something good and make it excelent, and this applies directly to move properties as well as to all other shit involved in the game!
I'll bet you guys: Next MK Death Traps - >> Suck ass!

My 2 cents!

I knew i'd forgotten something:

(Combo) Breakers ->>>> KI's Combo breakers!!!!!!!!!!

It's an excelent concept fro either chains or strings, but, as mentioned before on this thread, needs to be improved.
Why not hold the same button attack as the opponent to break the combo?!
And change the animation to a push back?
That could involve that some of the chains should have more options or specific moves to go into other styles, but isn't that good? More interesting and deeper gameplay?

Good point, things do come and go in MK for no reason.

I wish they would take some of the ideas and keep perfecting them instead of just eliminating them or just ignoring them.

It's like they keep starting over so some things never really get finished.


For the Breakers, I'd like to see different fighters have different ways to get out of combos.

This here could be for just 1 or 2 fighters.

They could have a parry that can link to a number of pre set attacks. Like tap f+BLK and your fighter can do a ready stance. If the opponent attacks high or med, your fighter would do 1 of like 4 possible blocks. Once you successfully block 1 attack, you will block the rest of the string automatically but only if they are all High or Mid attacks.

Every one of the HM blocks can have 2 pre-set counter attacks = press a punch or a kick button when the block connects.

You have to pay attention to what block is used so you know what button will do what. Or you can just guess.

You can counter after 1 block, or after an entire combo.
When you press Punch or kick, the opponent will be left open long enough for your counter to connect.

They can counter you with a parry, reversal, side step, or timed guard.

That could be a breaker for 1 or 2 fighters, others can shove the opponent to the side, do a regular reversal, power block = shove or block with elbow to stop combos and cause damage. Some might teleport or use Iron armor like in Kung Fu movies.

Iron armor is when a guy becomes very tough, able to take hits and not suffer damage. Like they are made of Iron.

Cage could use his Ball breaker while blocking combos as a combo breaker.

Some one could do a long back dash or a back hop while blocking a combo. They could then do like a spring attack = hop back, hop forward with a kick that could stun the opponent or floor them leaving them open for more damage.

Another fighter could have a parry that pushes the opponent to the side and set's them up for a side throw. Another one could be a parry that makes your guy spin around and end up behind your opponent again leaving them open for a back throw.

There could also be a parry that makes your opponent bend over leaving them open for a crouching throw. Or a special reaction that happens only when the opponent is ducking like a knee strike to a crouching opponent might cause a long stun that could lead to more damage.