Hmm are we back to combo breakers again?

I actually like the idea of the ball breaker dodge.

MK feel?
Ninjas and Fatalities.

Maybe oneday the fighting system, but it lost that after it switched to 3d.

Impales, heres an idea. Impale, can pull it out, but removes a good chunk of life. So if near death, you might as well leave it in, you'll actually last longer. Stabs can cause limps to the opposing player, slowing them down.

The impale idea is interesting, assuming there is still a weapon stance, does the impalee (not a word, I know, hehe) get another weapon stance now?

Thanks for keeping this thread alive guys, I've been lurking here and there and read a lot of the ideas here, sorry about not giving input before though, university work and T5 taking up too much time. And after MKD release for awhile, I just got tired of the 50/50s. Reading the infinites and eventual brokenness that we all expected has also been very distressing, but oh well.

I'm back now though and I hope to keep this thread alive as well as to help in the creation of the next MK through our ideas so they don't slip through the crackhole of being forgotten through the swarms of which character is coming back, fatality ideas/requests/demands, which female is the sexiest character, etc. through the swarms that will eventually come, it'll be a longgggg while before that though.

Thanks again to everyone, all of you, for keeping this thread alive so it isn't just another forgotten gesture.

How about having juggles that only work if the opponent is in a specific position while air born.

One launcher might make the opponent go up just a little bit.

You can do a low juggle from that.
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Normal MK launcher = you can do normal juggles.

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Launcher flips the opponent so they land feet away, head towards you.

Some specific juggles might only work in this situation.

Maybe if you hit the opponent while in the air with a certain attack, it could make them recover back turned.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Launcher makes the opponent twist in the air so they land side ways.

some other juggles might work for this, maybe a side air throw!!! = back breaker or running wall slam toss.

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some launchers could toss the opponent close to you, others could launch them a little further away. That could be an opening for a vertical attack like Cyrax's air throw in UMK3, a slower special move or a high wall slam.



some launchers could make the opponent hit the ceiling. like with Whoarang's f, d, df+4 in Tekken 4.

While Bleed has been putting a good bit of thought into this thread, the true master is back. Now I wanna elevate my posts for the amusement of HDTran.


I'll start next post.

I don't play MKD anymore, with the exception of a few parties to surprise people "MK is still around?"

Did EA buy Renderware out? I heard something about it. Isn't that the modeling setup for the past 2 games?

Also with Shaolin Monks, will the conquest be worthless (its nearly already so)? So a new way of learning the moves would be needed. If so I mention my training idea again, with a built in trainer into the practice mode like DOA.

That's what they need, a straight forward training mode.


Have a training mode with lot's of options for training in different things. Something like in the Tekken games would be perfect.

It doesn't need to be overly elaborate like in VF4.

Although it would be nice. But MK's system isn't complex enough to require something like that.

This was from the I hate Ed Boon thread:
I have always thought, that Boon now needs to take a step back and become only a creative consultant. Let a new wave of programmers take a crack at the game. An external producer would also be nice, maybe one with a little japanese influence. Midway should try to outsource some of the work, as its cheaper, and we can get a mix of foreign programmers and us style mechanics. MK needs to adopt a more professional and less glitchy fighting system, which I'm all for some other people might be better at.

MK7 is gonna HAVE TO be a different beast. In terms of presentation, they can't just slap in a Shaolin Monks type conquest. If Boon wants to release a fighting game then a shaolin monksesque game every other year, then he'll have to make each game different enough to warrent cosumer spending.

I'm gonna do something kinda wierd, but I'm gonna continue my post in the MKD primer sticky, as its going to diverge into how Boon needs to improve his game.

------

Well welcome to those who made it here.
The very interesting thing is that next gen systems are going to be huge in terms of space for use of games. Looking at blu-ray (format for PS3), we're easily looking at 35+gigs. Do Boon and Co know how to make use of such space? I mean they just can't upgrade the sound quality to make it take more space, this means an unprecidented amount for customization for each character. So the engine which can still fit on a Cube disc, isn't gonna cut it. We're gonna have to look at a 200% increase in quality. The sad thing is, with that much more space, there is more room to be sloopy.

Very wierd is how Nintendo adjusts its custom format for Revolution. MKD cube, was able to be pulled off, because MKD in the first place wasn't much of a space eater on the Xbox and PS2 discs. It might be impossible to port the game over to Revolution.

I do wonder why Boon doesn't put his games through better testing? Does he know hes only doing so much for what hes getting paid for? Does he think hes developing an enferior product? A slight hint is when people ask him for things in the game, he says we could, but then the game budget would have to be increased. If so, back to 2nd party producer. Pump some money into the next game. Halo and Half Life 2 are just pure examples of a pure quality product that will only ensure franchise success. MK hasn't returned to the top yet. I still get surprised looks from casual gamers when I told them I have MK6 and its in 3D! If MK is modifying its fighting setup for a more casual gamer, then they are failing. So might as well improve the fighitng engine.

Gah I went ranting, but is there hope?

For the first time, after watching Shaolin Monks video, I'm happy to see the fighting engine taking a good turn. The air combos look great, as do the fatalities. The interactive levels are another plus. Guess what? Ed Boon isn't the programmer, and just a consulant. If this game is a sucess, then further proof of Ed needing to back away.

Not just the programming needs work, but the overall design of the fighting engine needs a major overhaul.

I get the impression from all the previous MK games till now that MK is going to continue to be below standard in the fighting design area of the game, unless new people that have a better understanding of it can be put to the task.

Ed has a lot of great ideas but I don't think designing a really good fighting engine is his main strength. I get this from all the previous games.

It's not an insult or put down to Ed or the MK staff, it's just a realistic observation.

It's a continuous problem in every MK game and I wish something would be done about it.

How about a fighter that has a regular reversal that can work against throws.

Not a throw escape type thing, but an actual reversal like pressing b+2+4.

I've never seen this implemented before.


It could be like an Aikido, Karate, Hapkido, Judo fighter or maybe a wrestler like lucha libre.


A throw reversal would cause more damage than a normal attack reversal because it would be a lot harder to predict a throw.

They could do some really complicated animations for something like this.



Eye candy
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Another idea

Thinking realistically, how about having some attacks that can auto block at specific heights on recovery?

For example, I'll use Tekken 5 again.

Kazuya's df+2 might be able to auto block med attacks during recovery.

Jin's f, d, df+1 could also auto block med on recovery.

Whoarang's 4, could auto block high but it would cause him to stumble back 1 step.

If auto block is too cheap, then they could just be moves that have a just frame block as an extra property.

also a stance like Whoarang's flamingo could have an auto block because he already has his knee up in a block position. He could auto block and take a step back.

I'd like to see Scorpion have a full burn counter. It would be hard to pull off, but if you're touching Scorpion in anyway, and he impliments the full burn, then Scorpion is dropped and escapes.

Sub-Zero could do a burst of myst like in MKDA, and it allowes him to escape throws. The difference could be, his would disable the opponent's hands by freezing them, but both land on their sides.

Scorpions can be done in the air, but sacrifcies a little bit of life. Throws can hurt a lot, but certain escapes should cause a little damage to the player. Vary up that damage for some players, heck have some with no damage.

Some counters can set up should setup a free hit, some should automatically hit back. Some moves should simply go around other moves.

I dunno why, but I've had some Scorpion fatal ideas:
Scorpion whips out the spear, and kicks into the opponents head.
Scorpion pulls out the spear and starts to scrape off the skin, and pulls out the skull of the opponent. He then holds it up as it ignites it flames.

Guess I have to get on the bandwagon.
I used to hate this post utterly, because I felt it slammed my MK (still do in a way, strangely enough even though my point of view has changed). I can't ignore how sloppy MKD is anymore.
Out of all MKs, MKD is my favorite or level and character design. But playwise? sigh.....

I still like their Konquest mode with the different realms to explore. I like it being a game in its own right, not JUST a training mode.

I also like other mini games, but not at the expense of the real fighter.

Yes, other fighters have glitches and infinites. I will stick to that. Unfortunately, none have as many that are as noticeable right off the bat as MKD.
It's still fun for me, but I admit now, it needs SO much more.

I have read the ideas in here, and am saddened. I am sad because they are such great and wonderful ideas, but chances are they will be overlooked and never be used.
I don't WANT MK to be under par anymore.
I also don't want it to lose what makes MK special in the first place: It's characters, atmosphere, and special moves for the characters.

One of the things (one of them, not THE one) that makes MKD glitchy are the special moves in it. My PERFECT MK game would be a deeper fighting system, eliminate the cheapness and brokenness, yet STILL retain special moves (teleports, projectiles, although maybe done differently. I am a fan of how they are done now, although many say they are useless in a 3d game. I disagree wholeheartedly, but maybe there is a way to make myself and those other people happy as well).
If MK could manage to do those things (a very hard feat indeed), then my woes would be over.
I'll post some ideas from time to time in here, but I'll warn you: I am not as knowledgeable about the mechanics as HD Tran or Rayrokka or Tony, so bear with me.

And oh yeah, sorry this was so long.

Things that could help projectiles in a 3D world.

Make them wider

Make some unblockable

Make some cause block damage where normal moves don't.

They could have special uses like a guard break or block stun

Instant knockdown or knock far away to a wall slam.

They could track

The player could have control of them like Kung lao's hat in MK2.

They could travel in different directions like Shang's fireballs in MKDA.

They might cause massive damage

They could also be worked in to combos the same way punches, kicks and throws are. = Like in the 3D king of fighters that recently came out.

Some can be used to hit floored opponent's like Rayden does to shang in the MKD intro.

They could be used as juggle enders

There could be set ups for them like a counter attack that stuns the opponent, leaving them open for a projectile attack.

They could also be used in reversals, throws, and throw escapes.

There are many ways to make projectiles more useful in 3D space.

I appreciate that post, Skaven. I don't like having to say that Deception is a bad game and nobody here likes to hear it either. But if MK gets better then all of this so called "MK hate" will go away. The fans shouldn't have to defend a game. The game should be good enough to defend itself. It makes me sick to think that MK is at the bottom of the barrel considering I grew up with it and all. We don't hate MK. We hate what is wrong with MK.

It really sucks. I realize you don't hate MK. That's cool. It just really sucks when a game that had SO much potential (I really think MKD could have been the best as far as design, content, extras, and characters go, if only the engine was redefined) and then get your hands on it, try to ignore the silliness of it all only to have it overwhelm you everytime you face an infinite or characters like Bo and Dairou. Glitches that took not even a DAY to figure out. Disgusting. Without the glitches it is still fun to play, but it needs so much more.
Now, you all have awesome ideas. Incredible. And many of the ideas keep my biggest concern: keeping MK as MKish as possible with its special moves without having it turn to garbage.

Bleed, those are good ideas about projectiles. I thought about the tracking idea. Personally, I think the projectiles need to come out faster, and move faster when they come out. But for THAT to be effective, I think characters also need to move faster. If a faster projectile is coming at you, you need a faster character to dodge it.
Projectiles with additional properties are something I tossed around as well. Sub has his freeze, Scorp has his spear.
Possible properties:
Knock back Stun Cannot block Track movement Slows you down for a few seconds Wraps up your legs or arms for a few seconds so punches or kicks cannot be used Pop up Trip A soul steal type move (not as quick or short ranged that it destroys balance...an actual projectile)

Some could track your moves, but I really think they need to be pretty much a straight line (you throw something at someone in real life, it generally goes in a straight line). If we could somehow figure out how to throw it in different directions (say you know a guy is going to move left, throw it more to the left, as if you were throwing a snowball at a moving target and anticipating the targets move before throwing). The trouble is, I am not sure how that could be done on a controller without making you need an extra thumb.
Eh, I'll write more later when I have time to read the rest of the posts. The thing about me is, improvements are great..but MK still has to retain its characters with their signature moves, pop ups, air juggles, projectiles, teleports, and general atmosphere in the level design. Interactive levels were a step forward. I also still like the 3 stances. If we could keep those, and re-do the engine with those properties, IMO, we would have a winner.

Fireballs and all that don't have to follow the rules of reality.

A fireball can move around like a snake in a game if you wanted it to.

For throwing a fireball to the side, it could be done like this.

You do the command for the projectile and before the throw animation is finished just tap another direction on the D. Pad.

Like with Sub's ice it would be like d, df, f+punch, up to throw it more to the background. or d, df, f+punch, down to throw it more to the fore ground.

You can do that with Devil Jin's laser in Tekken 5.

welcome shaven,

the different thing about this post is we don't just whine, we whine, show whats wrong, and then suggest a recommendation.

Projectiles
Bleed, watching some of the SM (Shaolin Monks) footage, it looks like they took some of your ideas and went to a more MK4ish style of combo. The bounce of MKD/A is there, so it looks like they're really getting to something, espcially with the air combos.

Some projectiles, definetly unblockable, but slower. It'd be cool to have Scorpion's spear be pressure/charge related reactive. How hard you hold the button will determine the speed and damage of the spear. Also distance of opponent matters. Doing a full charge move close by can do a lot of damage. A quick throw can be used for setup of rope dart combos, and can be recalled quickly. Yet they're not going grab the person.

Imagine:
Scorpion whips out the spear, it hits you, he whips it back, spins, allowing the rope to circle him, while he throws a turning swing kick, then the spear whips around in full 3d and smack.

The whole autolock on should be fixed, and it should be possible to start combos early and change direction in mid movement. It looks like SM has this.

All of Raiden's move should be charge moves. To do the torpedo for someone across screen would require a massive hard press. Off course all of Raiden's moves that deal with electrcity should be unblockable. Charging can also allow him to move his blasts like a flame thrower, but it locks him in place as you can redirect the charge. Other players could have the ability to fire projectiles while moving, but they would be weaker.

Tie this all with a run meter. Pull a MK3, and using speed can affect your combos. Some specials will annihilate your speed meter. Speed meter should also be related to your health. Taking a hit when you're on low speed (tired) will hurt a lot more. The speed meter length will vary from player to player.

Something interesting for a fighter would be an aderaline rush that he can kick in to not take damge. Not like Jade though, when dying, he can make a last few seconds attempt to take out the other fighter. We already have Hari-karis, why not something to rob people of flawless victories, or if its an extremely close match, make the other person end the round in a draw.

Assuming Boon and Co. make draws possible. I remember he was asked whether draw games could happen and he said, "No, someone must win" like there is nothing wrong with that. Have both characters stand on the edge of the falling cliffs in Deception and let them fall off at the same time. The game seems to randomly decide the winner. That's not even bad mechanics. That's just plain stupid.

Good to see you back here Tran. Remember how long it took to get this thread stickied?

Mortal Kombat definitely needs some improvements. I barely play it anymore even though I am an avid fan of the series and I defend the games against haters. The core fighting engine needs to be up there with the other 3D fighting games.

The combos and special moves in MKSM are looking pretty awesome. They are making use of 3D space and being more creative with the combo system. Even though, it's still the unblockable stuff. But that doesn't really matter so much in an adventure game.


About charging special moves by pressing the button hard will probably cause a lot of broken controllers.

I think it would be basically the same thing but safer to just tap the button quick or hold it down.

Maybe the pressure sensitive thing could be made so a normal press would be the hard press and a very light tap would be the light press.

This way, you don't have to worry about people breaking their controllers.


But now that I think about it. That would still cause problems with Arcade sticks. You don't have pressure sensitive arcade sticks.

It looks like the best way to is with time variation for how long you hold a button down.

Hmm....I like the button charge idea. The longer the charge could equal a bigger projectile and more damage.
I'll have to agree with Bleed. The first thing I thought of when I saw tap sensitive projectiles were broken controlers, that and people complaining they hit it hard but got a light tap result.
Maybe for the light projectile just do the regular motion, but for the super charged one, hold another button down while doing it? Or more directional taps? For example, a fireball could be forward, back, 2. For a super charged one, it could be forward, back, back, back, ,2 or something like that.

Actually timed charge moves (like Lius old bike kick) would be duration moves.


Umm broken controllers? I'm quite sure that these controllers can take some pressure. The movements are never meant to be charge and pushed hard, it is the final button that determines the charge. That button would be more time based (yes I meant time not pressure). So tapping the button makes it a quick move, push and hold, your fighter will go into a charging but vulnerable stance (imagine Raiden from the MKD opening charging the electricity). Now after its being fired, you can change directions of the projectile. Some players can do this while moving. So if you do a full Raiden thunder blast, the lightning will keep flowing for some time and he can change the direction of it if the player moves. Projectiles aren't lock ons, they are just sent forward. So some moves can be adjusted.

This of course would all be linked to a charge/endurance meter. We don't want people charging then killing you in one hit. Now taking a page from street fighter. Buildng your charge meter once, but not releasing your fireball will up your strength. Eventually pull it off again, you can pull off a fatality mid round. Building up a charge will also effect the amount of blood in a fatal. Some fatals should only be allowed if you have the strength to do so. Its kinda a momentum building thing. Imagine pulling off a fatality mid combo?! Getting hit will lower health and the charge meter for a little bit. Not getting hit recovers charge slowly. Flawless combos recharge the charge meter faster, and jumping into the 2nd charge meter would allow possible health recovery! Kinda like the second wind type. I just loved movies where the hero gets his second wind as he beats the crap out of the bad guy with his last amount of strength. So I'm actually for 100% combos that can be pulled off when the fighter is in danger. Missing once off course means your death. Then but of course, as a fatal is being performed you can try to pull off one last hit in a moded Hari Kari I previously mentioned. The gameplay really gets twisted and still unique.

I personally enjoyed Konquest. It gave us adventure buffs a little to chew on and helped ( a little) explain the story in MKD. I liked exploring the different realms. I just didn't like all the pointless missions. I would preffer to have Konquest back, earning koins and looking for people to train with and unlock. I thought they were onto something big there.
My only thing is, instead of making it one long adventure with one character, do it with all the characters. Same big world(s), but small missions with each character, with new areas opening up when new characters are unlocked and used in Konquest. The training would come with actual personal battles with their nemesis at the time (instead of "hey shujinko! transform into me and I will teach you my art in minutes").

In other strangeness, I have been watching the Shaolin Monks vids and personally think the direction they are going with the fighting looks promising. Stupid question, but would it be possible to use that camera perspective for a standard fighting game (with tweaks, of course, or is it too open-ended? Zooming in when necessary, then expanding to the perspective Shaolin Monks has.
There was one thing in the Concept Art that really caught my attention: that was the 2 or 3 on 1 Kombat mode. This type of camera/engine would make this possible. That way, when the people in the chatrooms say stuff like "I can take you and four others on at once" they can back it up.

Multiple people fighting at once? Hmm it would require some tricky camera work.

Now with SM, you don't have a full fighting game persay, its a 3d person perspective mixed with a fighting engine.

Now really it could work with multiple people, but the whole engine would overall suffer. The graphics for SM isn't so great, and polygons are being dispersed for all the things in the background. The fixed perspective would be a strain for detail as it might be hard to make out some things.

An alt?
Endurance tag matches now could work. Then you can setup team moves and team fatals.

Team fatal:
Subs and Scorpion
This was the first fatal idea I ever animated. Sub freezes you in deep freeze, Scorpion melts you with toasty.

Kung Lao and Liu Kang
Liu does his cartwheel uppercut and Kung Lao slices the person in half as they come back down.

Scorpion & Sindel
Scorpion brings you in with the spear, while Sindel screams, the spear holds you into place while the scream is working its effects causing your head to explode.

Jade & Kitana
Kitana brings you in with her fan lift, and then speeds it up and brings you to impale yourself on Jade's bo.

Ermac and Kenshi
telekenesis tug of war on the oppenent

hehe, I would not ever think this thread to be stickied Wizard.

Projectiles and how to handle them Bleed pretty much covered all the points. The biggest problems with projectiles now are that they provide no mixup, they are easily steppable/avoidable/etc. and they have just too many flaws to name. I think the most easy way to accomplish useful projectiles would have each projectile inherit some properties that Bleed listed.

Therefore, Freeze could be an unblockable, hit standing and crouching opponents, but can be sidestepped, has a decent startup and a decent delay. Spear on the other hand, can have a fast startup, a horrible delay on miss, is unblockable, cannot be sidestepped and be ducked. Likewise, you can have force block projectiles much like how a lot of projectile traps were used in oldschool MK. For example we can make Liu Kang's fireball fully track, cannot be sidestepped, however it has a big startup, but almost no recoil delay. Therefore Liu can hide behind projectiles while he goes upto them (while the fireball is forcing them to block, much like Guile and Guile-esque chars) and apply certain mixups. Of course the delay of shooting out a fireball must be greater than the time it takes for your character to automatically getup (assuming the next MK has no ground game), otherwise Liu could keep repeating this process for safe mixups.

Of course projectiles that hit other heights besides highs would instantly be useful as well. Such as projectiles that require you to block ducking or standing (mids and lows that actually act like mids and lows), thus allowing you to use it in your mixup.

Spacing projectiles are always great as well, for example, Cage's fireballs aren't so good, but if on block they cause the opponent to stagger and be spaced, giving him a small advantage, it'd really change the way his character would be played and would be very interesting.

On the charging thing, charging moves are a tricky business. Both control-wise and practical use.

The control-side of thing, the most sensible thing to do is holding a button, or tapping it several times (like Sakura's fireball in Alpha), but pressure sensitive controls are a big no-no. Just too many factors including controllers and whatnot, especially if some people want to use arcade sticks and other things that don't have pressure sensitive reading movements at all.

On the practical use side, I cannot recall any fighting game where any slow charged up move has found any use. So while the charged up moves might provide extra umph to a move's visual appearance or improve uses/properties, the uncharged version is what is going to be used, especially when it comes to good players.

I really like the unblockable Raiden lightning ideas though and such. If we give characters themes gameplay-wise rather than simply visual appearance, it would go a long way. So if all of Raiden's lightning moves were unblockable, you'd have to duck/step/jump everyone (which is obviously different based on the move). Likewise we could have say Johnny Cage where a lot of his moves induces a stagger on block and gives him advantage after its been blocked. Stuff like that would change the game in a very dynamic way, of course newbies would cry RAIDEN IS THE CHEAP cause they can't block him easily, but it would be a real nifty thing to do. People would identify characters as like stagger characters, unblockable characters, etc.

PS =P Im not a master of anything, everyone who has contributed on this thread knows what I'm talking about. We all just play too many fighting games and know too much of these fundamentals lacking in MKD.

I got to play Naruto for the PS2 and GC over the weekend.

I have to say that it's pretty awesome and a lot of fun.

I wouldn't mind having something like that in MK as a side game.

Naruto is similar to power stone and smash bros milee.


On the one for the PS2, you can have a brawl with 4 fighters at the same time.

Go here to see Naruto game play movies

On Raiden being possibly too cheap.

I'd love for Sub-Zero to have the ability to damage him very easily. Water and electrcity don't mix

So...

Certain people should be able to have properties that vary with other people.

Like Scorpion can melt an ice projectile from Subs.
Blinding moves have no effect on Kenshi (yes thats there now).
Women can't have the nut punch done (yes it should return)
Nightwolf can summon a mystic power to be immune from Raiden for a little bit.

Since I'm for abolishing the konquest mode (it forces Boon and Co to work on the engine), the story and secrets would have to be access somehow.

Money can be earned from the games, but how bout combos? Pull off a number of combos, and keep them in the air as long as you can. The SM engine is showing you can do some pretty long combos. Returning the pt system would surely help this out.

Now this is evil, and Boon and Co will like it.

Use SM 2 to unlock stuff in MK7.

Then you can have time sensitive unlocks, and beating the game with other fighters will unlock others.

On the topic of unlocking fighters, the select screen should change a little bit, just to hide a few fighters. It'll be more of a surprise when we unlock them. Looking at a space available just kinda hints to us. Esp with unlocking Liu Kang in MKD.