I am a casual gamer and am not obsessed with the gameplay. Virtua Fighter IMO was HORRIBLE. I love MK because it is FUN and SIMPLE. Why the hell would I want to play a boring game with terrible characters and story. MK is great because of the blood, fatals, story, and characters and should never change. The fighting engine needs a few improvements but if they make it too complicated I will be VERY disappointed because MK is famous for being a FUN and SIMPLE game that is VERY addictive. The reason MK is addictive is because it is easy to play. I wouldnt want to have to study out of a book just to learn how to play a fucking fighting game. Thats just IMO. I respect all of your opinions stating Virtua Fighter is WAY better than MK but MK is FUN, SIMPLE, EASY TO PLAY, and ADDICTIVE.

I find SSBM fun, simple, easy to play, and addictive. I find Tekken fun, simple, easy to play, and addictive. Deadly Alliace is fun, half-assed, simplicity trying to hide, and not a challenge. I'd say the only reason most people keep playing MK is because of, guess what? BLOOD AND FATALITIES. That was fun back in the day, but that shit doesn't cut it now.

As Satya said before on this thread, DO NOT CONFUSE COMPLEXITY with DEPTH. Look at Soul Calibur 2 for instance, it's VERY easy to play and most of the options that any character has is VERY simple to execute. However the Depth is obviously in your mixup game as well as understanding your opponent and opening up opprotunities for yourself. SIMPLE with DEPTH. In SC, you are juggling between vertical, horizontal, step - as well as high, mid, low - as well as attack, block, throw - as well as normal attack, stagger, unblockable - as well as ground, standing, crouching - etc. get my drift? But it is still SIMPLE and EASY to play. Better players are obviously better because they have better thinking and understanding of the game, not because it is complex and therefore hard to play.

We can easily break down the other fighters to similar games, although Virtua Fighter and Tekken need much more effort to learn. (although in Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's case, they TEACH you how to play through the training mode for the game system and character specifics/combos)

MK is SIMPLE without Depth, it is a basic Rock Paper Scissors game that is broke to all fuck and doesn't have any sort of move properties at all. Even at the Rock-Paper-Scissors level, MK fails.

The fact of the matter is, MK IS NOT ADDICTIVE and not fun to play. How many hours do you really play MKDA a week? Do you still even play it after a month it released? I play several fighting games, but the one I've been most dedicated to over the past two years is probably Guilty Gear XX. I generally get around 4-7 hours a week on it in the arcades. I used to do around 1-4 hours a week of MKDA, now I find it hard to even do 10 minutes because the system is so crappy.

reptile001 Wrote: I am a casual gamer and am not obsessed with the gameplay. Virtua Fighter IMO was HORRIBLE. I love MK because it is FUN and SIMPLE. Why the hell would I want to play a boring game with terrible characters and story. MK is great because of the blood, fatals, story, and characters and should never change. The fighting engine needs a few improvements but if they make it too complicated I will be VERY disappointed because MK is famous for being a FUN and SIMPLE game that is VERY addictive. The reason MK is addictive is because it is easy to play. I wouldnt want to have to study out of a book just to learn how to play a fucking fighting game. Thats just IMO. I respect all of your opinions stating Virtua Fighter is WAY better than MK but MK is FUN, SIMPLE, EASY TO PLAY, and ADDICTIVE.

Man that post in my opinon was absolutely redundant man. Do you even play video games for gameplay?

How in god's green earth is MK addictive when the gameplay sucks ass? How is it fun? Fun and Addiction don't come from watching someone rip somebody's head off over and over again. Face it man. The wow factor is gone, and Midway can longer depend just on gore factor to suceed on a larger scale. You said yourself MK is "good" because of pretty much everything EXCEPT gameplay. Can't you see the facts? Shut up and realize we are not FUCKING trying to make it deeper than VF. We want a game that is playable and doesn't make us feel like a fucking 7 year old for playing it. Is that so much to ask for you?

I've tried to keep my composure in this topic, but now I am just getting pissed off at posts like that. Bleed,Tony,Stay...it must be the fact that you are all probably 7 years older than me or more, because I am losing tolerance for this.

Versatile Wrote: reptile001 Wrote: I am a casual gamer and am not obsessed with the gameplay. Virtua Fighter IMO was HORRIBLE. I love MK because it is FUN and SIMPLE. Why the hell would I want to play a boring game with terrible characters and story. MK is great because of the blood, fatals, story, and characters and should never change. The fighting engine needs a few improvements but if they make it too complicated I will be VERY disappointed because MK is famous for being a FUN and SIMPLE game that is VERY addictive. The reason MK is addictive is because it is easy to play. I wouldnt want to have to study out of a book just to learn how to play a fucking fighting game. Thats just IMO. I respect all of your opinions stating Virtua Fighter is WAY better than MK but MK is FUN, SIMPLE, EASY TO PLAY, and ADDICTIVE. Man that post in my opinon was absolutely redundant man. Do you even play video games for gameplay? How in god's green earth is MK addictive when the gameplay sucks ass? How is it fun? Fun and Addiction don't come from watching someone rip somebody's head off over and over again. Face it man. The wow factor is gone, and Midway can longer depend just on gore factor to suceed on a larger scale. You said yourself MK is "good" because of pretty much everything EXCEPT gameplay. Can't you see the facts? Shut up and realize we are not FUCKING trying to make it deeper than VF. We want a game that is playable and doesn't make us feel like a fucking 7 year old for playing it. Is that so much to ask for you? I've tried to keep my composure in this topic, but now I am just getting pissed off at posts like that. Bleed,Tony,Stay...it must be the fact that you are all probably 7 years older than me or more, because I am losing tolerance for this.

I didnt say MK was good for everything exccept gameplay I said the thing that makes MK better than other fighters are all those things I stated. I agree that MK's gameplay needs improvements but I personally liked MKDA's gameplay and think if they just made some good improvements it could be great and put MK up there with Tekken and VF in terms of gameplay.

Whoa, Whoa, versatile... chill chill... though we are trying to make points, making the otherside mad won't help getting the point across...
Anyway... I think someone came up with this thread right when MKDA came out on here and it wasn't very well recieved... even by me... Now I've played DOA3(need to buy it) looking forward to DOAU, and am probally going to buy Soul Caliber II on thursday so my friend will stop ripping me a new one when we play... I got tired on MKDA multiplayer due to my friend always using a huge style link combo to put me under the ground and I could only use Scorpion or Kenshi to defend myself, because most of the other character's combos were worth a shit...(Kano also) and a couple others, but with the unfair advantage of knowing the glithes and having those long combos, cheapness is a must when playing it multiplayer... MKD will be broken as hell online if that fighting system is not addressed to give all characters an equal chance... later

I wonder what they are waiting for, to show the public the new enhancements they made to the core engine.

Like the breakers, and the wall shove or switch place move.

I would imagine that stuff should have been done by now.

I wish they would put all that up on their site already. Little animations like in the VF4 sites.

I hope the breakers aren't like in KI. I'd like them to look more like reversals. Like preset counter attacks, such as a scorpion kick or a sweep.

Preset attacks depending on the attack you opponent throws at you. That's what I'd want to see.


Maybe some regular attacks can break you out, like with a rock paper scissors counter hit style.

Like you can counter a jab, with a side kick, or counter a hook punch with a crouching punch to the gut.

Certain attacks that can auto counter others, sort of like how in Tekken Tag, Bruce Ervin's >>+2 can counter a punch, or in VF4 Lion's D, B+P has an auto parry in it.

I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system, max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please. You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want.

Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max. I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do. Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass". If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now.

SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap.

What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now? Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value. The same preset combo's just like MK. 4 attack buttons just like MK. The ability to link specials at the end or beginning of combos just like MK. So what makes Tekken so much better than MK??!! Please tell me the answer to that.

I don't know if it is gamers getting lazy or what, but seriously, I don't see how a 2-button fighting game with easy as hell to learn controls can be called deep. Atleast MK does not use the same combos over and over and over for each character. It's more than just p,p,k. It makes you think instead of just mashing buttons and pulling off some 6 hit combo that takes 45% of your opponents life. You want that 6 hit combo? Better take your character into training and practice it over and over.

As soon as someone tells me how VF or Tekken or even SC = depth. I will shut up, because I don't know how you people play MK:DA but my playing in that requires ALOT more strategy than any one of those 3 games.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system, max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please. You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want. Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max. I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do. Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass". If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now. SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap. What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now? Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value. The same preset combo's just like MK. 4 attack buttons just like MK. The ability to link specials at the end or beginning of combos just like MK. So what makes Tekken so much better than MK??!! Please tell me the answer to that. I don't know if it is gamers getting lazy or what, but seriously, I don't see how a 2-button fighting game with easy as hell to learn controls can be called deep. Atleast MK does not use the same combos over and over and over for each character. It's more than just p,p,k. It makes you think instead of just mashing buttons and pulling off some 6 hit combo that takes 45% of your opponents life. You want that 6 hit combo? Better take your character into training and practice it over and over. As soon as someone tells me how VF or Tekken or even SC = depth. I will shut up, because I don't know how you people play MK:DA but my playing in that requires ALOT more strategy than any one of those 3 games.

Wow. Ok where to begin. Um, the simplicity/complexity scale is separate from the shallow/deep scale. Simplicity/complexity is based around how hard it is to do something. Shallow/deep is based around how many options a player has in a given situation.

Also, your claim to have "mastered" characters in what was it? 25 minutes? Yeah, I really don't know what to say to that. Who have you played against? What tournaments have you won? Beating the AI isn't exactly the greatest accomplishment.

MK is missing a ton of stuff that the other games have.

You can do one combo in MK over and over, and that's all you need.

moves have pretty much no properties.

Combos are guaranteed off the first hit.

Moves list is very limited.

Every fighter fights pretty much the same because of a lack of detail for each style. You just need to do the longest style branch combo over and over.


You can't attack when floored.

You can't attack when facing away.

You can block throws.

on and on and on............


Someone like Vers can explain with more detail I don't really feel like writing a long ass essay right now.

The differences have already been explained many times.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system, max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please. You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want. Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max. I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do. Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass". If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now. SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap. What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now? Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value. The same preset combo's just like MK. 4 attack buttons just like MK. The ability to link specials at the end or beginning of combos just like MK. So what makes Tekken so much better than MK??!! Please tell me the answer to that. I don't know if it is gamers getting lazy or what, but seriously, I don't see how a 2-button fighting game with easy as hell to learn controls can be called deep. Atleast MK does not use the same combos over and over and over for each character. It's more than just p,p,k. It makes you think instead of just mashing buttons and pulling off some 6 hit combo that takes 45% of your opponents life. You want that 6 hit combo? Better take your character into training and practice it over and over. As soon as someone tells me how VF or Tekken or even SC = depth. I will shut up, because I don't know how you people play MK:DA but my playing in that requires ALOT more strategy than any one of those 3 games.

Wow that post was a whole a lot of scrubby talk with no meaning and a misconception of what depth is. You lose major points pal. Go in a corner and hate yourself.

I would disect your post apart, but I am far too depressed after reading it to even bother. Can someone own him please? Bleed? TTT? HDTRAN? ANYONE?

Well, here is a little copy and paste action from a post I made in another thread.


Things I would have to make a good fighting game for me. This is just my opinion.

(The fluff)

Amazing graphics

Cool characters

Dynamic camera work, like in the movies

Awesome interactive stages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Basic game play)

Easy and effective movement

Smooth animation

Useful attacks, and moves like rolls etc.

A Ton of attacks

Realistic looking reversals, sways and parries.

Escapable combos

lots of variations for combos. High, med, low, side step, throw, counter stance, all that kind of stuff could be used to make combos more exiting and more fun.

Attack while in different positions

Crouching
Laying down face up or face down
Standing with back to the opponent
side step attacks


Tec. roll

Wall Tec. roll



(Then the things to bring it over the top or Depth)

Throw escapes

Throw reversals

Reversal reversals

throw chain combos

Attack combos link to throw

counter or auto parry stance

buffering

good frame data to control the effectiveness of the attacks.

Timed attacks or combos Sort of like just frame moves, or the combos in Tao Feng for more powerful attacks.

Harder commands give the player the feeling of accomplishment when the execute them. You could call them "show off moves"

Feints

change up moves = An attack that is a fake and is interrupted with another.

Delayable combos = You can control the speed of the combo to make it harder for your opponent to break.

Counter hits and different effects if a move connects as such. For example if you do a med kick to the gut.

A normal hit will push the opponent back.
Counter hit can stun them, or make them fall.

Down attacks = like in Tekken and VF, you can hit characters when they are on the floor.

Off wall attacks or jumps

Wall throws like in DOA3 and VF4


Extra flashy moves and special attacks

Chargeable moves and special attacks

Button hold time dependent moves. Like if you tap kick, you can do a high kick, but if you hold it, you will kick and go into another stance, The Flamingo or something.

If you hold punch, you will throw 2 punches instead of one

If you hold punch, the effect of the attack will be different on the opponent.

Many stances, and easy switching between them.


Bla, bla bla......




MK has some of this stuff, but it's missing more than half of what the other games have as far as game play goes.
It doesn't need to have everything that's in that list, but a lot of the stuff is a must.

Maybe someone else can explain it a little better.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system, max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please. You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want. Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max. I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do. Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass". If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now. SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap. What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now? Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value. The same preset combo's just like MK. 4 attack buttons just like MK. The ability to link specials at the end or beginning of combos just like MK. So what makes Tekken so much better than MK??!! Please tell me the answer to that. I don't know if it is gamers getting lazy or what, but seriously, I don't see how a 2-button fighting game with easy as hell to learn controls can be called deep. Atleast MK does not use the same combos over and over and over for each character. It's more than just p,p,k. It makes you think instead of just mashing buttons and pulling off some 6 hit combo that takes 45% of your opponents life. You want that 6 hit combo? Better take your character into training and practice it over and over. As soon as someone tells me how VF or Tekken or even SC = depth. I will shut up, because I don't know how you people play MK:DA but my playing in that requires ALOT more strategy than any one of those 3 games.

Well I've played SCII and DOA3, so I'll kinda look at those rather than tekken or VF4... first of all to master... truely master a character on say the 'button smashing' SCII you need to be able to counter random button smashing... which if you can block, counter, and know what to do in all situations, and in that game you have the option to fight back in all situations, you can smoke a button smasher easily... DOA3 I'm better at and I just use reversals against button smashers until they start to use some tactics and counter me once in a while or keep their distance until I attack...
With MKDA, you only need to use maybe one combo per character, there are fewer options than in the other fighting games mentioned... most of the styles are useless, and the ones that aren't have on long combo... it you use it in a match isn't that hard, if you can hit... reversals are harder to pull off do to their nature... you don't counter attack automatically, but go into the same combo and they can only be used with certain styles...
With MKDA the simplicity gets on my nerves, because you can't do anything but the long combo or a small combo that usually isn't worth it, because the bigger combo is easier to pull off... so side step, block, until one person botches up and you score a hit and then you do the combo again...
With say DOA3 you hit, block, knocked to the ground, roll, attack from the ground, reversal, power move, attack while facing the opposite way(which has different properties than attacking forward), sometimes a spin move that takes you from a down position to a standing one, which pops the opponent up which leads into a juggle combo... which all happens a lo faster than MKDA and all of this is easier to do than a string combo, but if you don't know what you're doing you'll get smoked against an experienced player...
Example: PLaying MKDA my friend does the same combo on me to defeat me or vice versa, because any other tactic isn't safe or affective... and I complained, and he told me that that is the only thing he can do to win and I realized... oh yeah
EXample: DOA3, another friend is pretty good and always beat me, well we were playing against each other and I realized his pattern of attack, so I use a reversal everytime he used the same attack, he got mad after I beat him like four times... he switched up his attacks, to use lower attacks so I would have to guess where the attack was coming from to counter it, then I used a sliding attack to his legs and popped him up to make it difficult to counter me(I'm using Brad Wong and he's using Ryu Hayabusa)... now he uses and jump move that throws me, but can also be used to avoid my lower attack, he attacks with the same attack I was countering and I counter it... he is mad again...
To the point... some fighting games its more like a game of chess rather than a step, block, attack, because you have so many more options rather than just a simple combo(or a couple of combos)... thats what I see as depth... later

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system, max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please. You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want. Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max. I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do. Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass". If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now. SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap. What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now? Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value. The same preset combo's just like MK. 4 attack buttons just like MK. The ability to link specials at the end or beginning of combos just like MK. So what makes Tekken so much better than MK??!! Please tell me the answer to that. I don't know if it is gamers getting lazy or what, but seriously, I don't see how a 2-button fighting game with easy as hell to learn controls can be called deep. Atleast MK does not use the same combos over and over and over for each character. It's more than just p,p,k. It makes you think instead of just mashing buttons and pulling off some 6 hit combo that takes 45% of your opponents life. You want that 6 hit combo? Better take your character into training and practice it over and over. As soon as someone tells me how VF or Tekken or even SC = depth. I will shut up, because I don't know how you people play MK:DA but my playing in that requires ALOT more strategy than any one of those 3 games.

The fact that you equate depth to the string of your combo is just hilariously funny. Does that mean infinites and 100+ hits on MvC2 and Killer Instinct is the most deep games ever? LOL

Virtua Fighter is all P, P, K, K? LOL. Load up your Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution and go through tutorial mode or series training. Go through training for 30 minutes and you'll see that you're the biggest dumbass in the world. Otherwise, go to the virtuafighter.com and visit the versus city forums or read some Virtua Fighter docs. You don't know the meaning of Depth.

Anyways, from reading your post... first of all, you have no fucking clue how to play a fighting game, much less understand it. You will get raped on MKD online and will see how simple and stupid it is, sorry. Here are some of the things Virtua Fighter has that MK lacks entirely:
- Counterhits, imagine that, hitting a person and disturbing them gives the move more properties such as launching them, but won't launch them on a normal hit that isn't a counter.
- Frame Advantage, doing certain moves and pokes, while they're not ideal for speed, will allow you to STAGGER your opponent to have an advantage in the next clash by a few frames.
- Ground Okizeme game where you can punish and get punished by a guy on the ground as well as Off the Ground Combos.
- A real throw game, Japanese can do 3 throw breaks in 20 frames, thats 1/3rd of a second since VF generally has 4 main throws. How many can you do? Probably not even one, MKDA doesn't even have throw breaks, its just a high priority mid that doesn't even throw blockers. Other fighters also reward you for throwing opponents from behind them by making the timespan to break impossible or so short that it isn't conceivable.
- A Real juggling system, guess what, MKDA doesn't have one. MKDA's juggling system is ALL based around their PREMADE strings. Virtua Fighter's strings are made for newbie players who generally can't play for anything worth a damn. No one uses those premade strings in Virtua Fighter at even casual level play, yet the premade strings in MKDA are used in high-level play, Dial a combo anyone? Virtua Fighter's real juggles and real combos require SKILL that many people on these forums probably can't even do after 3 months of practice since it the buffer between some of the moves is only 1-2 frame timespan.
- FRAMES, MKDA has no frame advantage, 'nuff said.
- A real mixup game, MKDA has none. God damn, it's so simple a little kid can play it.
- Staggers/Crumple Stuns, MK has no such state at all. You can stagger and crumple stun them to do followups that ARENT launchers in Virtua Fighter.
- Stuns on different areas MKDA doesn't have. You can stun them in the back while they are tech rolling away in VF and pull off a big back combo since they are facing away. I knock a guy in the stomach in VF, I know I can get a small near Off the Ground combo off. I sweep the guy off his feet and know that I can get 2 kicks and maybe an attack to his stomach if he doesn't tech roll on the ground. Etc.
- A good teching/ground game. Right now, teching system is a joke, you can't even pick to lay down on the ground and wait. You have to instantly tech or don't tech at all.
- Sabakis. Moves that go through other moves near the beginning or the end. Example: Akira's shoulder ram will allow him to ignore punches and elbows from high and mid in the first 5 frames of the move.
- A real countering/parry/reversal system, MKDA doesn't have it even as simple as Soul Calibur's Guard Impact. In Virtua Fighter, EVERY character has different defensive options. For example, for a character like Jacky, he has several counters for mid punch, then another for mid kick, then another for mid elbow. However, for Aoi, who is a countering master, she has one command to cover all mids. Likewise, all characters have very different defensive options to counter, parry and reverse. Lau-chan for example has NO counters at all since he is an all out offensive juggernaut. MK HAS NO DEFENSIVE MANUEVERS. Their half-assed reversal SMs for certain characters are useless against a good player and so newbie friendly that you really wonder where they are going with it.
- Normal moves that go through other moves. In MKDA there are very few, almost absent entirely. Kitana's pretty kick and Sub-Zero's Dragon B+4 are some of the few moves that let you dodge others entirely.
- There is NO reason whatsoever to use moves that aren't the fastest/mostdamaging/safest in MKDA because the system has no move properties, it sucks total ass because more than 80% of the movelist is worthless. In Virtua Fighter, every poke, every kick, every elbow has A REASON for existing. Whether it be invincibility towards other moves, to counter certain moves (mids/highs/lows and punches/kicks/elbows) or getting Counterhit opportunities, MKDA doesn't have it, but VF does.
- Tracking, Virtua Fighter also has moves that track better than others, which is another reason to use slower moves or moves with more delay over others. In MKDA, Verse and others have pointed out that you can simply make every move track by holding up before, that's retarded. It makes you just use the best moves then.
- Guard Crush/Unblockables, MKDA has none other than Scorpion's hellfire. This is horrible considering that most stances are entirely useless and weapon stances for most characters are slow as shit with so much delay that it would only be passable if some of their moves guard crushed and were unblockable.
- REAL Combos, what, did I say Combo(S)? Yes, in Virtua Fighter you have to utilize many combos that you learn off of MANY opprotunities to do off the ground, to follow certain stuns and to fight with max efficiency. In MK you learn 1 combo, wow that was great.
- REAL multiple stances, in Virtua Fighter characters have REAL stances that are actually useful. For example, Aoi has a stance where she will parry every mid and high attack, but cannot attack until she leaves it. Lei Fei has a stance that changes all of his moves and will parry high and mid punches only. Hell Vanessa has a stance that changes her entire game from defensive and offensive. Brad has a stance where he can utilize more evades and in the few seconds that he is evading, gain frame advantage for his next clash. MKDA's multiple stances is an entirely useless system when 90% of the characters are only good in one stance. Also, the best character, Scorpion only needs one stance to dish out his mixup, the biggest damage, and cheese.
- REAL MOVEMENT, yes each character moves different, steps different, and can dash forward and back and crouch dash and can sidestep/evade attack. MKDA is shallow and it's movement is a pathetic backdash system WHICH is glitched so you can cancel delay off of moves, yay.

Virtua Fighter has so much more to the system that you aren't able to comprehend that it's funny.

The list goes on. Really, go read some stuff on virtuafighter.com or get Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution for $20 for your PS2 and play through the tutorial mode so you can get a freaking clue about what depth is.

Depth isn't how big your combos are. Oh yeah, Virtua Fighter's movelist is bigger than MKDA even with less buttons, funny huh? Why? Because most moves are done with buttons accompanied with a joystick/direction pad motion, not simple 2,3,1,4,2,4,etc. crap in MKDA. Also, when you're playing VF, try using your direction pad and multiple buttons at once, you will find that every combination and stick motion that is conceived will make your character do something different unlike MKDA.

You all yet still neglect the fact that VF has used the same system for 10 years almost and you compare it to a new system created that has been used in 1 game. You guys make it sound like Boon and co. aren't even trying and THAT'S what really pisses me off. Do you know of another company that would listen to the fans as much as they do? This is a fan created website, yet is well known by develepors of the MK games. Do you know another company that would take the time to come to a fan created website just to see what we have to say?

If you're so damn sure VF is the best game ever than take the time to e-mail Midway personally and let them know that. We don't need a 12 page thread on here with bickering back and forth. It is YOUR opinion that VF is better. It is MY opinion that MK is it's own game and should not try to equal VF's "depth", or any other game for that matter.

I wrote that first post in the manner I did for this exact reason. 95% of the post in this thread are heated arguements back and forth over nothing. I wrote that post and immediatly had flames towards me when that is what has been going on in this entire thread. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Any sensable post to defending VF or another game I have enjoyed reading. And I have now proved my point that this topic is nothing but a ever lasting flame war. If you like VF then fine, your deal, your life, but if you feel the need to come on here and defend it then can we all please stop with the flame wars? Your time could porbably be better spent actually e-mailing Boon @ Midway to let him know what you think.

So now that I am the dumbass because I have acted like near everyone else who has posted in this thread, can we end discussion please and possibly try to do something constructive?

You made some points that were in error and as a result they were corrected, that's what happens in a debate.

If you say something that doesn't really make sense, you will be corrected.

Some people are just a bit more aggressive than others.

You all yet still neglect the fact that VF has used the same system for 10 years almost and you compare it to a new system created that has been used in 1 game. You guys make it sound like Boon and co. aren't even trying and THAT'S what really pisses me off. Do you know of another company that would listen to the fans as much as they do? This is a fan created website, yet is well known by develepors of the MK games. Do you know another company that would take the time to come to a fan created website just to see what we have to say?

The fighting engine was "perfected" before the start of the franchise and before the fluff. Many companies do take time out of their way to see what fans want. That is, if their base corporation is within reach. Capcom of Japan cares. Capcom of America does not. The only company I know of with little contact with fan ideas is Nintendo.

If you're so damn sure VF is the best game ever than take the time to e-mail Midway personally and let them know that. We don't need a 12 page thread on here with bickering back and forth. It is YOUR opinion that VF is better. It is MY opinion that MK is it's own game and should not try to equal VF's "depth", or any other game for that matter.

We do e-mail them. However, the developers are usually NOT the ones to answer. You said yourself Midway comes here, so, it'd be best if they see this.

I wrote that first post in the manner I did for this exact reason. 95% of the post in this thread are heated arguements back and forth over nothing. I wrote that post and immediatly had flames towards me when that is what has been going on in this entire thread. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Any sensable post to defending VF or another game I have enjoyed reading. And I have now proved my point that this topic is nothing but a ever lasting flame war. If you like VF then fine, your deal, your life, but if you feel the need to come on here and defend it then can we all please stop with the flame wars? Your time could porbably be better spent actually e-mailing Boon @ Midway to let him know what you think.

We get a lot MK fanboys/girls who defend MK in the mose inane way possible. "It has a shit fighting system BUT IT HAS BLOOD WHEN VF DOES NOT!" I don't know what you wrote previously, but I'll be sure to read it.

So now that I am the dumbass because I have acted like near everyone else who has posted in this thread, can we end discussion please and possibly try to do something constructive?

Either you said something defending MK's fighting engine that it was GOOD, or you posted something inane like that blood comment. I'll go read your previous post right now.

JadeDragonMeli: Okay, yes, you DID deserve the flames. Defending MK's engine by saying you can "button mash" in the other games is ridiculous. In Deadly Alliance, you could use the same combo over and over again and win the match. Tekken, VF, and Soul Calibur (I don't like the SC franchise more than MK, but it does have a better fighting engine.) are manualized instead of preset. You can perform your own combos with the MOVES it gives you. What you view as Down, Down-to-Forward, Forward, B, A, etc. is usually ONE move by itself. A good example is Ivy in Soul Calibur. Ivy can pull off one move that is almost an incredible 26 presses long. However, it is not a combo, just ONE move. You can use the moves to your advantage in manual combos.

When you see B, A, B, that is because that particular move has different actions for different buttons when you press it. You can easily just push B, A and then do a half-circle-forward Y motion. Tada. Three-hit combo. You can also push B,A,B and then do the half-circle motion. Four hit combo.

Saying DA's system is superior to VF, Tekken's, and even SC's is not an opinion, it's just stupid. I don't like Soul Calibur has a fighting game, but if you can't see it has a better engine than DA, that just proves ignorance of fighting games.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: You all yet still neglect the fact that VF has used the same system for 10 years almost and you compare it to a new system created that has been used in 1 game.

Those games at the time revolutionized the genre and were widely accepted. They started great and just kept getting better. MKDA didn't do anything to push the genre forward like those games. MKDA pushed the genre back.

"It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo, but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass"."

Your opponent will be asleep though. I've formed this habit of just putting my controller in my lap when I see the start of a branch combo connect on me. I'm at the beginning phases of smoking a cigarette when a branch combo connects. I'll keep you all informed how that turns out. The combo system is trash and i feel embarassed when I pull combos off. Certainly don't turn to my opponent and say I owned his ass. I think to myself how much I owned myself for even learning how to do those combos and the game in general.

This thread had far exceeded its point. Enough arguing. CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

DMitch Wrote: This thread had far exceeded its point. Enough arguing. CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

Just shut up. Every response we make does mention how the gameplay can be improved, and how it compares to other games.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: You all yet still neglect the fact that VF has used the same system for 10 years almost and you compare it to a new system created that has been used in 1 game. You guys make it sound like Boon and co. aren't even trying and THAT'S what really pisses me off. Do you know of another company that would listen to the fans as much as they do? This is a fan created website, yet is well known by develepors of the MK games. Do you know another company that would take the time to come to a fan created website just to see what we have to say? If you're so damn sure VF is the best game ever than take the time to e-mail Midway personally and let them know that. We don't need a 12 page thread on here with bickering back and forth. It is YOUR opinion that VF is better. It is MY opinion that MK is it's own game and should not try to equal VF's "depth", or any other game for that matter. I wrote that first post in the manner I did for this exact reason. 95% of the post in this thread are heated arguements back and forth over nothing. I wrote that post and immediatly had flames towards me when that is what has been going on in this entire thread. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Any sensable post to defending VF or another game I have enjoyed reading. And I have now proved my point that this topic is nothing but a ever lasting flame war. If you like VF then fine, your deal, your life, but if you feel the need to come on here and defend it then can we all please stop with the flame wars? Your time could porbably be better spent actually e-mailing Boon @ Midway to let him know what you think. So now that I am the dumbass because I have acted like near everyone else who has posted in this thread, can we end discussion please and possibly try to do something constructive?

To recieve constructive replies, both sides have to try to understand one another. You have shown no interest to try to understand what Virtua Fighter has nor what MKDA lacks. The fact that you think a PPPPK combo, a preprogrammed string is the basis of the game, shows that you haven't even given the game the light of day. NO ONE USES THOSE because they don't offer enough floating damage when comparing to combos where you do a lot of moves in the form of quarter circle motions, half circle motions, etc. stringing them together. Thats like me saying fireball is all MKDA is about, which NO ONE uses (unless you are the few characters that can exploit it in your juggle). You made strong statements without even trying to understand the other side, you get strong statements in retaliation to your ignorance. That's just how life works. Get to virtuafighter.com and start reading the boards and see what those fans talk about or reading the docs or just booting up Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution version and going through the tutorial modes. TRY to understand where we're coming from because most of the people on this thread know where MKDA is coming from already and other where other fighting games are coming from. I suggest you do the same.

If you like the MKDA the way it is right now, all the power to you. 80% of the moves useless due to no move properties and damage/speed/delay ratio being the only factor, that's fine. But for me, I would like to see a complete movelist where most of the moves are useful and most of the stances are useful.

No one here is DEFENDING Virtua Fighter because there was no attack in the first place. We are advocating for a better system.

DMitch Wrote: This thread had far exceeded its point. Enough arguing. CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

Quit crying. If this thread was about how much we love Sub-Zero's new look, you wouldn't mind it at all. God forbid people criticize MK. Besides, if it was closed, another thread would pop up. As they've been doing.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I have been reading this thread for well over a week and I have yet to see how a 2 button fighting system...

I see three, actually. Maybe I'm dislexic

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: max 5 hit combo system is considered "Depth". VF has depth? No VF has 40 preset combos, most of which are the exact same for most characters. "Oh look I can do P,P,K better than you HAHAH"!! Get real please.

Canned spam does not translate into depth. Canned spam translates to...well, spam.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: You guys are comparing a fighting engine that has been in use for almost 10 years by Sega vs something that was created for one game by Ed Boon and co. How's this, 10 years from now after they have perfected the engine you can compare it to VF4 all you want.

VF's engine has changed quite drastically over the years. MK's really hasn't, aside from DA.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: Which leads me to my next point. I actually quite enjoyed playing MK:DA and having to learn 10 hit combos to be able to use my character to the max.

You don't "learn" 10 hit combos. You memorize them, then spam the shit out of them.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: I can (and have) litteraly maxed my skills with a character in VF in about 25 minutes, who's BTW best combo is P,P,F+K,K. Ooooo that is so in depth and challenging to do.

You've maxed you skills with P,P,F,K,K? Yeah...we'll get to that in a minute. Maybe 25 minutes.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: Can I do that in MK:DA? Hell no. It might take me 25 minutes JUST to remember what buttons I need to hit for the incredibly long style branch combo...

Poetry helps to strengthen memorization skill as well as speed. Just a little tip.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: ...but when you pull it off in a fight against someone you like at them like "I just owned your ass."

"You," owned nothing. Pressing 1,1,2,cs,1,1,cs,3,4 is nothing more than pressing 1,1,2,cs,1,1,cs,3,4. Owning involves an educated attempt at out whiting somebody on a consistent basis, usually with style and verve.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: If you guys feel p,p,k,k makes a in depth fighting game then you should all be playing Budokai right now.

You really like your P,P,K,K don't you?

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: SCII? Don't make me laugh, that has even less "depth" than VF does. To the point where I have played through all of weapon master mode yet my 12 year old brother can pick up a controller and button mash and beats me 40% of the time. Why? Because that game is set up so you don't need skill. So everyone has a equal chance of winning regardless of skill, and that to me is crap.

If you lose to mashers, with any fighter, you suck. Sorry, you just do. Weapon master? Heh. Don't worry so much about WM and go hit up your arcade and get 20+ W's on that board, k.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: What about Tekken? Ok we've been using the same characters or mere variations of the same characters for how long now?

Uh, that's one of the points of a fighting game. To establish the characters. If you bothered to actually read HDTrans post, you'd realize theres this thing called a "property." These "properties" are a direct reflection of how the move works. Not on the surface, but deeper with in. THAT is what defines a character in a fighting game.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: Yet people on here complain about MK's characters being dry? Please!! Tekken has 0 story value.

On "here" do you mean MKO in general, or this thread? Almost no one complains about MK's characters being dry on these boards. Tekkens story actually follows a classic japanese story telling formula. Or one of them; as it relates to the tragic hero destined to struggle with his existance. Cursed with turmoil by a parent of dark and a parent of light, with various supporting characters and love interests. Yeah, it is quite shitty.

JadeDragonMeli Wrote: WTF ever else I was babbling about.

I could go on and try to explain frame data in Tekken and VF, I could go on about move properties. I could try to educate you on the throw system in VF. How you do have 1/3 of a second to input three different escape cammands. How throws are eight frames - toss out a punch in DA, that's how fast a throw is in VF. I could talk about buffers, sabaki, garuanteed throw attempts, the set ups for various guarnteed throw attemps. Guard cancels, crouch dashing, throw evades. How all the afformentioned is directly related, in a full circle manner, to frame data and, and again, move properties.

It's useless though. For one, it's all in the fucking VF tutorial that came with the game. Which, I find funny. That tutorial was like crafted from the top japanese and korean players.

Also, you dont seam to understand that this thread has really nothing to do with VF. It - VF - was simply used as an object of subjection to make a point. That point being that DA was shit in the gameplay department. Judging from all we know about D, it will continue to be that way come November, or whatever.

If you actually give a shit about learning what makes VF deep you can download some match vids and see for your self just how ignorant you are regarding the subject of depth. Also browse VFDC and spend a little more then 25 minutes reading the plethora of articles. Also, there are other match vids. in the forums.

There is plenty of material here on MKO explaining why other games are deeper than DA and what was wrong with DA. For instance, the stickies Ray made a while back in the DA discussion section. Read through those. When you do, please, eat a bowl of steamed rice, think a bit objectively, be patient, and try to be a little asian. Trying to think like an asian really helps to cultivate the thought process. If you decide to just blow it off, then why are you even posting?

DMitch Wrote: This thread had far exceeded its point. Enough arguing. CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

Why because a point is being made? We are not bad mouthing MK, but trying to make it better. If the fighting system doesn't improve then there will be nothing, but puzzles and chess to entertain those of us who know what real fighting games play like... this thread should continue until those who aren't educated on the subject are educated on the subject, and this isn't a flamewar quite yet. This is the first gameplay post to last for a while... it should continue to do so... later