I have spent a week reading,anylizing, and visualizing all of these wonderful game play ideas and suggestions. Lets just hope that the MK staff has done the same and actually implements some of these ideas. I really like the idea of a timed parry move by tapping foward + block, and the counters that result in smooth, cool looking animations. If those counters are added, hopfully they require precicion and timing in order to avoid becoming DOA.

I know that the staff reads these boards so here's to hoping that they respond to what I beleive will be the most critical point of this games existence. Most people at my local arcade didn't even know MK:DA even existed and if you tell them about it they assume that it was exactly like all of the previous games in terms of HP, LP, HK, LK. They just say "Nah, that games only full of gimmics."

I want to see this game get the game play mechanics it needs to prove all the nay-sayers wrong about MK. If it does it will make all the fans of Mortal Kombat happy, both harcore game play mechanic lovers like myself and the the players that only care about stories and fatalities.

mastermalone Wrote: I have spent a week reading,anylizing, and visualizing all of these wonderful game play ideas and suggestions. Lets just hope that the MK staff has done the same and actually implements some of these ideas. I really like the idea of a timed parry move by tapping foward + block, and the counters that result in smooth, cool looking animations. If those counters are added, hopfully they require precicion and timing in order to avoid becoming DOA. I know that the staff reads these boards so here's to hoping that they respond to what I beleive will be the most critical point of this games existence. Most people at my local arcade didn't even know MK:DA even existed and if you tell them about it they assume that it was exactly like all of the previous games in terms of HP, LP, HK, LK. They just say "Nah, that games only full of gimmics." I want to see this game get the game play mechanics it needs to prove all the nay-sayers wrong about MK. If it does it will make all the fans of Mortal Kombat happy, both harcore game play mechanic lovers like myself and the the players that only care about stories and fatalities.

yeah, it's not as if they need to put anymore effort into the stories and fatalities, everyone concerned is raving about them, so it does leave the staff a lot of time to deal with gameplay changes. Some of the attacks that have been mentioned sound brilliant, i just hope the element of interactivity is kept there, otherwise Deception will turn into a dragonball z clone, putting in a five hit combo then going into a huge cut-scene watching a move being done. Now I'm hoping MK won't drop down to that level, I'm sure it won't.

I love that idea, having a separate bar below your health, limiting people to the amount of specials you can do in a round, and when it becomes empty it can have an affect on your character, making them slower and giving them slower reaction times. That would diffinately put a stop to any one-move wonders out there, but would still leave the importance of the use of specials at the same time.

Counters in DOA are to simple to pull off, one of the four main buttons on the control pad are just for it, not only can the timing be made better than DOA but it could be made harder to do, giving moer self satisfaction to the player when they have done it perfectly.

baraka407 Wrote: Tony et all: I think that these ideas for moves are great. Awesome in fact. And Tony, your opinion that the number of options be increased for each character are both valid and well argued. Heck, when you were talking about Scorpion ripping a guy out of midair with his spear, my eyes lit up at just how freakin cool an idea that was. Obviously, you want to expand on MK, while keeping what makes the games what they are intact. I'm all for that. I have been arguing against those that believe that MK's weak in comparison to VF, Tekken, and the like. These people seem to think that adding a more complex throw system, reversals, and removing projectiles would make the game better. But those kind of things wouldn't make MK better in my opinion. If anything, it'd just make MK like those other games, no different, thus losing all sense of uniqueness that this series has had. I do think that certain things could be added to characters. Perhaps Jax could use his gotcha grab, but you control with the different buttons what type of punches he uses, or perhaps hitting the throw button could raise them up above him, still holding the opponents neck, and choke slamming him into the ground. I'm all for options. I just want, like many other fans on this board, to keep this game simple. If I wanted a complex fighting system, where each character had a hundred plus moves, I'd play Tekken, and I do, as I've stated already. I noticed also that what most people have mentioned are simply moves. Adding moves. If that's all people want, then I'm not entirely sure that MK:D will be the disappointment that opponents are already touting it to be. Every character will have at least six special moves. Now we don't know what type of moves these will be. For all we know, Scorpion could use that very move that you suggested Tony. I think that's why a lot of people keep saying that we should hold off judgement until we actually play the game. I know that we can get some good insight into the game through videos and what not, but I firmly believe that they only tell about 10% of what's going on in the game. Honestly, if MK:D is just a complete rehash of MK:DA, with no innovation or expansion in the ideas behind the actual gameplay, I'll be the first one to complain about it, but only after I've played the game. As long as the expansion of options that you're talking about Tony remain within the realm of MK tradition, then I'm all for it. But I still believe that this has to be the case. Removing projectiles, taking out the teleports and unrealistic moves do not make MK better. They make it a clone of everything else out there.

I don't think anyone on this thread specifically said to remove projectiles, the quote that you pulled off about pretty colors just was just made to show how useless projectiles are.

Satya and I have suggest two things to keep projectiles intact on this thread. Satya: Spacing and zoning with projectiles that take up the entire screen or huge space. Myself: All projectiles track, forcing block and beating sidesteppers.

As for all that more combos and etc. stuff, that's not really needed. What's needed more than anything are move properties (which most people have skipped my posts because they don't want to read the explanations), but both you and me know that 80% of the MK movelist is useless. It's because the other slower moves don't offer you anything if you land it. Putting in counter hit properties such as faster moves that will only launch when they counter hit, but wont launch normally like a normal launcher or moves that will crumple stun the opponent in the stomach and allow you to follow up with a little off the ground combo that can't float the guy much will just infinitely add more usage to other moves. If you remember Kitana's Pretty Kick or Sub-Zero's Dragon B+4 I believe, those moves sidestep you or provide you with invincibility towards certain attacks, at the cost of the huge delay at the end. However, since they allow you to go over and to the side of certain moves, they are usable. Or how about moves that when you hit a blocking opponent, staggers them so you gain a 2-3 frame advantage and the next clash you can win with a slightly slower move. Basically move properties allow you to use moves that aren't the fastest or most damage or safe, but since they have their little "UMPH!" by doing it, you have reason to use a more unsafe option.

In MK, since all moves can be made to track (pointed out by MKL, Versatille, and Konqrr) by hitting up quickly before doing the move, the movelist comes down to a speed/delay/damage ratio comparison. That move where you sidestep with Sub-Zero and you float over with Kitana are rendered worthless since you can easily sidestep and track a jab that will allow you to go into a big string combo. Also because of the string combos that come off of normal jabs, there is no reason for half the characters to do anything besides their fastest low option and jab until they get to do their full string. Block, jab, block, low, etc. That's all there is to MKDA as of now. Add in a few backdash and backdash cancels and sidesteps for those who don't hit U to track moves and the movelist gets reduced to 10% even maybe 5% of moves that are truly useful. If we looked at special moves (rather than normal stance moves), it's even worse since only a few characters can use special moves to any effectiveness. Kenshi gets his slam and TK throw for juggles, Sonya gets her kiss, Sub-Zero gets Ice Shaker for powerup during combo, Bo Rai Cho gets infinite with puke and tricks with stomp, etc. Most characters have only 1 good special move, some don't have any.

Other points such as buffering motions and adding buffer frames from Satya in my opinion has been the biggest thing to make MKDA feel less rigid. Bleed and Tony's stuff on throws and all you've obviously just read and I really like the ideas of a lot of the players on this thread. But I think what I just mentioned are its biggest problem points. I doubt there's anyone on this thread that wants MORE MOVEs, since we know that more moves just = more useless moves. We need the current movelist to be useful before we add anymore, and the only way to do that is move properties.

The last note, the biggest combos should definately not come off of jabs. We all know this is makes the usage of other moves even more obsolete since if jabs were the strongest,safest,fastest option, there is no point in use other moves besides another low to add mixup.

Usually I like editing to ammend stuff, but I felt this needed another post just to differentiate it from the explanations I gave above.

A LOT of people have said that this is MK's first true 3d attempt and it should not be compared with today's 3D fighters at their current incarnation. However, you have to sit and think about this comment for a little bit.

Let's say I start a movie company named "Huy's Asian Action Flicks" where I, Huy, the director make action flicks with asian movie stars for the US. Now If I push out an action movie, where I use the same techniques as the older movies, such as ketchup for blood, extremely extremely cheesy dialogue, unstable picture quality, music that doesn't flow and cuts off at random points, etc. Do you really think critics will forgive my company and myself as a director and say that it was within the first 10 years of my company? Do you think that my movie will not be compared with movies from Jackie Chan, Chow Yun Fat, etc. of today or even within the past 2 decades? Hell no, both me and YOU know that no one would give me the light of day, I wouldn't even get 1 out of 4 stars, hell I would be ridiculed and laughed out of Hollywood.

Likewise, MK is trying to hang with the fighting systems of today. Therefore it is compared to the fighting systems of today. IF MKDA came out when either Tekken 1 and VF 1 or Tekken 2 and VF 2, I would definately not criticize the system, its as simple as that. But it didn't, it came out NOW and starting late does mean more work, its the same with everything in life. You are compared to your current competitors, not past ones.

Not sure if people will get what I just said there, but in all respects, I've loved MK since the first game.. and everything but the first two games have falled really short. I noticed a lot of people say the lack of complexity for MK's 2d versions didn't show because 2d was not complex. That really isn't true, even in 2d we have counter hits, cancels, crossovers and a mixup game that was never there in MK. Examples of character difference included different pokes and delays put in at certain places. Even as early as the few earliest Street Fighter 2's, you could only hurricane over Guile's fireball, but not Hadokens. But in Turn, Guile can move directly after his fireball to follow up with one of his long range pokes (okay early on he only had two) with fierce to stop jumpers, a crouching forward for low mixup, or a jumping forward/roundhouse for high mixup, throws to stop blockers, and trap. Of course some of these options were only viable at certain distances. This gave Guile a fireball "shield" basically and any mixup he wanted after it. But Shotos (Ryu and Ken) could fireball trap with the rotation of weak ones (which put all the delay at the front of the ball) and fierce ones (which put the delay at the end of the ball) so you would shoot a weak and then a fierce and it would stop people from jumping right after the first one and catch them in the air.

We all know with the exception of UMK3 since it was so broken, that MK1 and MK2 was all turtling. UMK3 was slightly better, even though there were no crossovers, no variation in poking and everyone still had the same moveset except for special moves and preprogrammed chains, it was still pretty bad. I'm not sure how many of you actually got to the point in UMK3 where the level of play became so gay that it was unbearable, but I was there at the time and I was disgusted with it. Certain characters could easily win the match by just turtling and waiting for a moment where they could throw an uppercut or special move and continue into AT LEAST an 50% combo, usually a 70%, but if perfectly execute 80%-100%. Some characters such as Classic Sub-Zero was able to infinite you simply by jumping in with a punch, doing his chain that knocks them back up, and repeating it.

I love MK for what its worth still, but back to the point I was trying to make, as a 3D fighting of today, MK has to compete with 3d fighters of today. It's as simple as that. If I made a 3d fighter today and I made the gameplay bad, I doubt many of you would give me the light of day.

To respond to the post about guard impacts, if MK did that for the weapons stances, even if it were also done for the regular stances, people would still say that the idea was blatantly ripped from Soul Calibur. MK has always tried to be original in its concepts (with the exception of the KI dial a combos in MK3), and I personally wouldn't want want them to start copying other games now that they've got something completely new and unique in 3D.

HD: I definitely agree that alot of the moves in MK:DA were useless. If it wasn't a sweep or a move that sidestepped etc, it was pretty much just a straight hit. Personally, I thought the game had a generous amount of popup moves, and its supposed to have even more in MK:D. I'm not sure how you feel about juggles large or small, but I enjoy them. Still, I agree that alot of the moves seemed to just hit the person and nothing more. No knock back, no stagger, and that made them rather useless.

I think that MK should incorporate a wider variety of useful moves, especially within the context of the fighting style they're using. I got annoyed when I saw characters with completely different styles executing the same punches, kicks, sweeps, popups, etc. That really bugged me. I think that your ideas should be taken to a point in MK. I'm all for useful moves, but not if it comes at the expense of making the game too complicated.

As I've said before, I as well as many other fans on this board have liked MK because of its pick up and play ability. The fact that you can either learn the combos, go more in depth with the style branches, or simply use special moves and projectile attacks. I personally like that. If many of the moves are changed/altered to increase the aspects that you are advocating, I'm worried that the game might become to much about nuance and casual gamers might not get what's happening.

As I've stated, I play VF, and I'm good at it. Same goes for Tekken, Soul Calibur, and DOA. I've also played the worse games like Tao Feng, Kakuto Chojin, etc. I do enjoy complex fighting games, but I also enjoy the simpler ones. I think the problem here is that DOA, Tekken, etc were all conceived in 3D. MK:DA has tried to reimagine the MK series in 3D, while at the same time attempting to shoehorn the previous aspects of the 2D game. The results were mixed. If you keep it simple (and I use the word simple only in relation to the other, more complex fighters like VF), use projectiles, teleports, uppercuts, etc, you please the MK fanbase but you anger the 3D fighting purists, who have come to expect certain things from a 3D fighter.

That's why I give more leeway to Boon and company. He's essentially trying to make two games in one. If guard impact, reversals (on a bigger scale), and alot more of the strategic attacks that you're talking about were implemented HD, I'm not entirely convinced that the casual gamers or even the hardcore MK fans might not resent the new setup a bit. But if he essentially tries to make the game a 3D version of the old games, Tekken/VF/SC/DOA fans will look at it and laugh. Which is pretty much what some people on this thread have done. (I'm not saying that you have HD, but others have used descriptors like "sucks ass," "broke gameplay," etc because MK:DA's system doesn't measure up to the complexity of other 3D games).

The problem is striking a balance. How do you make the old MK elements fit into 3D and not only make them useful, but create a modernized 3D fighting system that FITS into the MK universe. I think that some people don't appreciate how difficult that a proposition that can be. I know, some of you aren't asking for the world here, just some tweaks, and some moves that are more useful for strategic purposes perhaps.

So basically, Boon is not the new movie maker making old style movies and being laughed out of hollywood. He's remaking one of the most popular movies of all time, and trying to keep it true to its roots while updating it for modern audiences. There are two groups that he's trying to please. With uppercuts, teleports, more popups, etc, I think he's still trying to please the old school MK fans. But who knows, maybe, hopefully HD, some of your ideas will be incorporated, because I agree that more useful moves that create more strategy can be a good thing.

baraka407 Wrote: To respond to the post about guard impacts, if MK did that for the weapons stances, even if it were also done for the regular stances, people would still say that the idea was blatantly ripped from Soul Calibur. MK has always tried to be original in its concepts (with the exception of the KI dial a combos in MK3), and I personally wouldn't want want them to start copying other games now that they've got something completely new and unique in 3D. HD: I definitely agree that alot of the moves in MK:DA were useless. If it wasn't a sweep or a move that sidestepped etc, it was pretty much just a straight hit. Personally, I thought the game had a generous amount of popup moves, and its supposed to have even more in MK:D. I'm not sure how you feel about juggles large or small, but I enjoy them. Still, I agree that alot of the moves seemed to just hit the person and nothing more. No knock back, no stagger, and that made them rather useless. I think that MK should incorporate a wider variety of useful moves, especially within the context of the fighting style they're using. I got annoyed when I saw characters with completely different styles executing the same punches, kicks, sweeps, popups, etc. That really bugged me. I think that your ideas should be taken to a point in MK. I'm all for useful moves, but not if it comes at the expense of making the game too complicated. As I've said before, I as well as many other fans on this board have liked MK because of its pick up and play ability. The fact that you can either learn the combos, go more in depth with the style branches, or simply use special moves and projectile attacks. I personally like that. If many of the moves are changed/altered to increase the aspects that you are advocating, I'm worried that the game might become to much about nuance and casual gamers might not get what's happening. As I've stated, I play VF, and I'm good at it. Same goes for Tekken, Soul Calibur, and DOA. I've also played the worse games like Tao Feng, Kakuto Chojin, etc. I do enjoy complex fighting games, but I also enjoy the simpler ones. I think the problem here is that DOA, Tekken, etc were all conceived in 3D. MK:DA has tried to reimagine the MK series in 3D, while at the same time attempting to shoehorn the previous aspects of the 2D game. The results were mixed. If you keep it simple (and I use the word simple only in relation to the other, more complex fighters like VF), use projectiles, teleports, uppercuts, etc, you please the MK fanbase but you anger the 3D fighting purists, who have come to expect certain things from a 3D fighter. That's why I give more leeway to Boon and company. He's essentially trying to make two games in one. If guard impact, reversals (on a bigger scale), and alot more of the strategic attacks that you're talking about were implemented HD, I'm not entirely convinced that the casual gamers or even the hardcore MK fans might not resent the new setup a bit. But if he essentially tries to make the game a 3D version of the old games, Tekken/VF/SC/DOA fans will look at it and laugh. Which is pretty much what some people on this thread have done. (I'm not saying that you have HD, but others have used descriptors like "sucks ass," "broke gameplay," etc because MK:DA's system doesn't measure up to the complexity of other 3D games). The problem is striking a balance. How do you make the old MK elements fit into 3D and not only make them useful, but create a modernized 3D fighting system that FITS into the MK universe. I think that some people don't appreciate how difficult that a proposition that can be. I know, some of you aren't asking for the world here, just some tweaks, and some moves that are more useful for strategic purposes perhaps. So basically, Boon is not the new movie maker making old style movies and being laughed out of hollywood. He's remaking one of the most popular movies of all time, and trying to keep it true to its roots while updating it for modern audiences. There are two groups that he's trying to please. With uppercuts, teleports, more popups, etc, I think he's still trying to please the old school MK fans. But who knows, maybe, hopefully HD, some of your ideas will be incorporated, because I agree that more useful moves that create more strategy can be a good thing.

Well stated Baraka, I agree with everything you said. However, you and I both know that MK's simplicity at its current stage is what destroys the game balancewise. I mean if I realized that the only stance with Kenshi I would need is Tai Chi, and the only moves I would need is his best low and his mid to air chain along with his jab, Telekintetic Throw, and Telekinetic slam. Why not just give me a movelist that is that chain, that low, that jab, and 2 special moves? That's all you can play Kenshi with if you want to win anyways, using anything more is just unsafe and inefficient. That's just simply the biggest problem with MKDA. It needs doesn't need to be the most complex fighter in the world, but it needs to be complex enough so that there is required thinking and options. I mean we look at Soul Calibur 2 and the game is damn simple to play, all of us knows this. But there is still a lot of thinking going on as well as mixing in other non-used practical moves aside from the main mixup.

That's all I really want MK to reach. Not something that's super complex, not something that makes you take a month even to master a character. But something that takes more than ten minutes to master a character, you know what I mean? Also some kinda thinking game going on, instead of reactionary rock paper scissors. Cause in MK, I'm not going to say that I can beat most people on this thread with this because I know I can't, but I can beat 90% of the people on these boards simply because my reactions are fast from playing other games. (As I'm sure yours are from playing VF, Tekken, DOA, etc.) I mean when we look MKDA, there's really little trapping, zoning, etc. and non-existant for most characters. It's a RPS game with high/mid/low. Not even sidestepping comes into play because every move can be made to be tracked.

MK definately does not need to be complex, but it needs at least some sort of depth to warrant the usage of 80% of the movelist. Otherwise, I really think Boon should cut down each stances moves to only 2-5 moves. Juggling and comboing is great and all, but since all launchers plop you up exactly the same way, have no move properties to differentiate them, they really only differ in graphics. Since launchers also don't launch characters to different heights or sweep them off their feet, the same combo is used over and over for max damage efficiency. I really think Boon needs to cut his movelist unless he changes it to be otherwise.

Back to looking at MKDA, I think there were only a few characters worth looking at that made the game decent and it's partly because of how broken they are as well as glitches and etc. because they are the only characters with real options.

Scorpion: Scorpion was top tier, a lot of people said he was cheap and full of cheese, I said he was the only playable character. I don't know about you, but after playing some of the other characters and then going to Scorpion, it's like a godsend come true. Going from Scorpion just gives you a bad taste in your mouth. Scorpion is the character to play and he gives you a great pressure game, stops good blockers, a great mixup game, and you can improvise a lot while you're playing Scorpion. Along with useful special moves and the Pi Gua stance, he is definately a dream to play. His sword stance and his Hapkido stance are worthless compared to his Pi Gua though, but that's okay since Scorpion has such a real game to use in Pi Gua. Even without move properties, some of the shit you were able to pull off with Scorpion with the hellfires made you feel like MK had move properties like stagger.

Bo Rai Cho:Well what can I really say about BRC. BRC easily has great safe options, but the depth and fun about playing him is he is probably the only real character that has a trapping and zoning game that you should always be aware of. Now he obviously, as we know, isn't bad or anything without this (even though he probably should have been), but his zoning and trapping game was fun enough to not play safe. A few tricks from the MKDA high level thread and BRC is just a monster with his stomps and puking leading into infinites and great setups. He is a great and fun character, while I assume some of his moves were taken away, I really hope they just tone down his stances or make his moves lack properties (and gives other move properties) and keep his puking and stomping with the infinite fixed.

Reptile: Reptile is probably the testament to MKDA's lack of properties game. A Character that has the safest and fastest highs and mids all rolled into his crab stance. A Useful special move, his roll, that is huge damage and fast. He is easily one of the most unbalanced characters you have ever seen. Sure Scorpion and Bo Rai Cho top him and all due to their abilities to do tricks that weren't meant for the game, but Reptile is good simply because the speed/damage/delay ratio of a move system made him that way. It was inevitable to a character with Reptile's efficiency was created. The best low, best mid, best anything is on him. If he had some of the tricks and infinites from Scorp and BRC, it would just be plain wrong. But all I have to say is, every character except these 5 should have been what Reptile is. Reptile is the master RPS'er and in a game system where RPS high/mid/low is the only concern you have, being Reptile is the best thing you can hope for.

Drahmin: Drahmin, when I think of playing him, all I can think is this; this is how MKDA juggling should have been. Drahmin exemplifies juggling with moves, if he had a few fast recovering jabs that were 1 or 2 hits to add to his juggles and floated, he would have easily been my favorite character to play.

Sonya: Sonya is an interesting character, not because of her concept or any of that, but I'm pretty sure she is the only one that can start a chain and go into a chain that hits low. This alone makes Sonya fun to play, along with her Kiss move to extend combos, you really feel like you were in a system that wasn't just RPS. Sure she had that great round kick that stopped sidesteppers, but since you can track anything by holding up, you might as well use her better options. Yet had the tracking trick not work, Sonya would definately just be a great well-rounded character. Only in TKD though, her first stance is okay. Her weapon stance is horrible, but she can TKD low and then use her Kali sticks to finish up with the CS and that was it. In that regard it was decent.

After looking at the Roster and gameplay movies for MKD, it really looks like Midway wants to fix/remove these characters, however I think every character should have been made to be like one of the top 5 instead, obviously with variations and move properties, but these 5 really had a game going for them.

OK thats enough!!!







Thread closed.

ur-soul-is-mine Wrote: OK thats enough!!! Thread closed.

Why?

Because he's a fanboy, cartmansp. Ignore him.

Wanderer Wrote: Because he's a fanboy, cartmansp. Ignore him.

I will.

BTW, these are all great ideas. I'm gonna repeatedly send e-mails to Midway, telling them to look at the ideas on this site.

games@midway.com

Obviously, if I'm the only one who sends them an e-mail, they won't care. But if a lot of people start sending them messages, they'll probably get the idea. It may not work, but at least I can say I tried.

im no fanboy im a fanMAN* and when I say thread closed I mean thread CLOSED!!!!






Thread Closed.

ur-soul-is-mine Wrote: im no fanboy im a fanMAN* and when I say thread closed I mean thread CLOSED!!!! Thread Closed.

Sometimes I think new members actually believe they can close threads by typing "Thread Closed" at the end of their post.

ha ha ha! That was good CartmanSP!

Keep pumping out ideas. We, as fans, have just as much an influence upon the course of this game as the developers themselves. We told them what we wanted for MK:D, and they got right to work, fixing what was wrong with MK:DA and adding a helluva lotta stuff. Fatality.

HD: Well, three of the five you mentioned are gone, but in all honesty, I think it just came down to who people liked playing as. I enjoyed playing as Sub Zero alot. I didn't enjoy playing as BRC. It's all a matter of opinion there, but I get what you're saying about the character imbalance. Still though, I think that if you learn a character enough, and you like them, you can use almost anyone in this game. I was able to have fun using Nitara, Frost, Kenshi, and others, but that's just me.

I'm confused now though, you want LESS moves in MK games? I thought you wanted the existing moves refined, or did you give up on expecting that from Midway? I think it's tough for some people to accept that MK, while in 3D, is simply different from Tekken, VF, etc. It's not deep. It's not meant to be deep. Yeah, you've got the style branch combos and the three fighting styles and what not, but MK has never been about depth in terms of 100+ moves and complicated throws, reversals, etc. I know, I'm repeating myself. I also know that you aren't advocating this approach either.

I agree totally with the people that want the moves to be more useful, and to remain within the realm of MK tradition. Honestly, there's no argument there. I keep restating my opinion because some people, not you or Tony, seem to think that MK should be more like Tekken and VF simply by virtue of the fact that it's 3D or a fighting game or both. I don't see people crying when Capcom V SNK came out that it should have multipart throws, real life martial arts moves to match the styles etc. MK comes from a tradition where characters had a martial arts style listed on their bio, but nearly all of the basic moves in the game were the same. It's tough to break out of that tradition.

Perhaps MK is trying to keep it simple by having characters with different syles sharing similar or exactly the same moves. I'm not personally for that, but I still argue against anyone that believes that MK should "modernize" and steal ideas from the "modern" 3D fighters.

I have no problem with properties. Your argument sounds like it's for subtle changes that would have a great and positive impact on MK:D. I have no problem with subtle changes. As I've said, it's the arguments that stem from the title of this thread: "After playing VF4, MK:D looks like crap." I can't tell you how many different ways there are to argue against that statement, and I have done that several times so far and so have other people.

I'm all for innovation, but not at the expense of identity. I think we agree on that, and lets hope Ed Boon agrees as well.

baraka407 Wrote: HD: Well, three of the five you mentioned are gone, but in all honesty, I think it just came down to who people liked playing as. I enjoyed playing as Sub Zero alot. I didn't enjoy playing as BRC. It's all a matter of opinion there, but I get what you're saying about the character imbalance. Still though, I think that if you learn a character enough, and you like them, you can use almost anyone in this game. I was able to have fun using Nitara, Frost, Kenshi, and others, but that's just me. I'm confused now though, you want LESS moves in MK games? I thought you wanted the existing moves refined, or did you give up on expecting that from Midway? I think it's tough for some people to accept that MK, while in 3D, is simply different from Tekken, VF, etc. It's not deep. It's not meant to be deep. Yeah, you've got the style branch combos and the three fighting styles and what not, but MK has never been about depth in terms of 100+ moves and complicated throws, reversals, etc. I know, I'm repeating myself. I also know that you aren't advocating this approach either. I agree totally with the people that want the moves to be more useful, and to remain within the realm of MK tradition. Honestly, there's no argument there. I keep restating my opinion because some people, not you or Tony, seem to think that MK should be more like Tekken and VF simply by virtue of the fact that it's 3D or a fighting game or both. I don't see people crying when Capcom V SNK came out that it should have multipart throws, real life martial arts moves to match the styles etc. MK comes from a tradition where characters had a martial arts style listed on their bio, but nearly all of the basic moves in the game were the same. It's tough to break out of that tradition. Perhaps MK is trying to keep it simple by having characters with different syles sharing similar or exactly the same moves. I'm not personally for that, but I still argue against anyone that believes that MK should "modernize" and steal ideas from the "modern" 3D fighters. I have no problem with properties. Your argument sounds like it's for subtle changes that would have a great and positive impact on MK:D. I have no problem with subtle changes. As I've said, it's the arguments that stem from the title of this thread: "After playing VF4, MK:D looks like crap." I can't tell you how many different ways there are to argue against that statement, and I have done that several times so far and so have other people. I'm all for innovation, but not at the expense of identity. I think we agree on that, and lets hope Ed Boon agrees as well.

Just pointing out that I think if they don't add move properties and want to keep it simple, they might as well reduce a stance to a chain, the fastest low, and jabs. =P Nah I haven't given up hope entirely yet.

My main is Sub-Zero and I love Sub-Zero.. but I just don't enjoy playing him. I learned him inside out and went through his command list at least 50 times. I read all the stuff from Versatille and Konqrr on Sub-Zero and it's just.. Subby can't do much. His biggest effectiveness comes from Dragon Stance really. His Kori Blade is worthless and his Shotokan stance is only decent.

With Sub-Zero this is all I can really do against a player who is playing as safe with a good mixup like myself:

Stay in Dragon Stance the entire match unless I need to string out something.
- D+3, gotta love that, snuff anything and is a great low, even though no real damage, but it adds up and is safe.
- D+2, hits mid and launches.
- 1, 1, 2 : jabs into a launch (high, high, mid)
- B+4, unsafe, but it sidesteps.. can't really use it and don't suggest using it anymore since you can easily make jabs track with up.
- Once they're in the air: Frozen Shaker, Power-Up, 1,2, CS
On weapon stance, sometimes I like to throw: 3's for mids, or B+4 or B+3 for a low.

But generally, when Subby comes down to it, this is all I do against a safe and smart opponent.
Go into Dragon, poke with D+3 A LOT, backdash cancel that move, when they're blocking low I launch them with D+2 or 1,1,2. Then I do this chain: Frozen Shaker, Powerup, 1,2, CS. I quickly change back to Dragon, of course blocking and sidestepping too. That's all there is to Sub-Zero efficient play.

There are some moves I mentioned before the previous paragraph.. but really, they're just thrown in there for kicks and risks, even though I usually eat a 30+% combo for doing them since my opponent, my brother, has been playing fighting games with me since we were both 5 and 7. He is able to see those other Subby moves a mile away, even if he didn't, since those moves had no move properties, it's not like I would win from em.

So basically just D+3 a lot and then launch them for a Frozen Shaker, Powerup, 1, 2, CS. Other than that, Subby can't do much...

But the likes of BRC, Scorp, etc. can easily do many many options off of everything. Scorp can punish blockers with shoving into Hellfire and BRC can trap and zone. These characters get to do things ABOVE the high/mid/low mixup. Sub.. can only do the high/mid/low mixup and doesn't have any trapping or zoning potential as well as no real ability to fight or change it up. I mean Sub is very straight forward RPS character, and even then he is unable to do it well since his options are unsafe or too low in damage. Subby just doesn't have many options that an expert level opponent would fall for.

Oh yeah, Scorpion also lost Pi Gua for Moifah.. oh well I suppose, Scorpion was such a complete character though. Another thing about Scorp that was really nice was the threat factor, the threat of Hellfire, even the high priority of his backflip was always nice. Scorp's movelist in Pi Gua also had MANY MANY safe options so you could do many moves that served the same purpose, but looked different to mess up your opponent. Oh well, I can only hope Hotaru in Pi Gua is great too.

wow, this thread took off didn't it.

Reading TTT's thread about new moves reminded me of a thread I made a while back.

It's filled with ideas for new moves that are some what like what Tony posted.

Check it out, it might help to get some new ideas going.

Special move ideas thread

Well, I have to agree with the majority here that MK is just not up to par. MKDA was exciting for about 2 hours and then you had seen it all. But it was a rushed product. If you really agree that MK should be more than it is, then do something about it that will help justify your opinion. You will just have to show your dissapoinment where it counts. Don't buy it. Just rent it if you need your blood fix or to see what's new.
The only thing in the business world that makes any impact on those in power are sales figures. Boon has been boasting how MKDA was the highest SELLING fighting game to date. I'd rather hear him boasting about how fluid his new fighting engine is in comparison to current fighters. Or how the animation is an achievement in realism not yet seen for a fighting game. Or even how his new technique for rendering human skins on 3D models will bring the surrealism to an all new high in his next installment. But instead all we get to hear is that we (the starving MK fans) gave Boon a lot of money and an even bigger head. But it's the name that sells MK anymore. It's the buyers who purchase MK before trying it out and contribute to those undeserved sales figures that are Boon's latest bragging rights. You all can continue to convince yourselves that you are TOTALLY satisfied with the newest MK. And then you will hop on here and say, "this and that is lame". "This should have had more time spent on it." So on and so forth.
In the future, you should be able to say to your friend, "but MK revitalized the fighting genre by adding (insert innovative new idea here)." Or "MK NEXT gives the fighting games currently available something they only wish they had thought of first." But honestly, you just can't say it. And if you do find yourself seriously convinced that MKDA or even Deception is more fun, more innovative, and more graphically stunning than DOA3, Soul Calibur 2, VF4, and the king TEKKEN, then you really do deserve to contribute to the online phenomenon of crappy games sell because it has cool ninjas in it. I am so harsh only because I love the old MK games so much. I play MK2 on my arcade emulator everyday almost. I still enjoy it's fun factor, it's gritty realistic graphics, and awesome sound effects and music. I guess I just wish I could taste that old-school blood in a new way. And I just don't with the new MK's. Here's hoping I am dead wrong.

Love to all my fellow MK fans.

Adjun:

I don't think Boon is only bragging about how great the sales have been. In interviews that I've seen, he seems to be excited about the fact that the game will be faster, teleports and uppercuts are going to return (both of which should make a classic MK fan like yourself happy), and the environments will play a much bigger part in the battles. I consider that a gameplay tweak when you factor in just HOW MUCH they'll be involved in strategy and what not.

As for being able to say that I TOTALLY enjoyed MK:DA, I can't say that. Then again, I can't say that I've ever TOTALLY enjoyed any fighting game. Virtua Fighter 4 is great. The graphics are awesome, the sounds are cool, but I know we're talking gameplay here. That said, I enjoy the combos, the counters, the multipart throws, the studders, the feints, the fakes, etc etc. That said, I think the moves are WAY to freakin hard to pull off. If you've never played VF, and you select Akira, I hope you have 48 thumbs, a bottle of gin, and some padding on anything a controller might hit.

Same goes for Tekken. I thought that Gon, Boskonovich, Kuma/Panda, and all of those other useless, lame ass characters were a waste of space, and I was pissed at how so many characters were duplicates. I hated how Kings multithrows generally required 88 thumbs. I felt like the game was insulting me by asking me to do all of this complicated crap. I thought that every character having a ten hit combo was lame as well. But there were lots of things that I liked about Tekken 3.

I can find flaws in any fighting game, gameplay or aesthetic wise. But yes, I genuinely had fun playing MK:DA, and I think alot of other fans on this site did as well. Can it be improved? Sure, of course it can. That's why there are sequels (well, that and making money of course), to attempt to perfect things and make things better.

It's just a different system, and you have to get used to it. Sure, like HDtran has said, there are alot of useless moves, and I wish they weren't in there either, but this is MK to me, and its fun. Not because it's MK, but because of the fighting styles, branch combos, special moves, black button alterations etc. Like it or hate it, whichever, but I like it. Understand that the "majority" of which you speak liked it as well. This is an MK fan site after all, and I think that if MK:DA really was a steaming pile as some here think, there really wouldn't be that many people here. Just my opinion.

There is one thing that ALWAYS bugged me about MK.The AI was messed up.I wish the AI will be more human like instead of just blocking all the time.It gets annoying.Sometimes the AI in MK was too easy and sometimes it was too hard.I think it should be right in the middle between Easy and Hard.Right here Hard () Easy

I hope the AI will be fixed because some people don't have Broadband or Cable to play online.Personally I think MKD will be alot better than MKDA.Mostly due to the speed and counters.But like I said before it needs the following:

Chain Throws
Mid,High,Low Counters(5 diffrent moves for each counter would be cool)
Timing(this is very important to Time Counters)
Wall Throws

Im happy MKD is faster because you have to play MKDA for a few minutes in order to get in the game.Not saying it needs to be like VF but its good when you have a WIDE variety of moves to choose from.Some of the moves in MKDA were useless in certain positions.

Baraka407,

I understand your saying MK:DA was fun for some people. Hell, people bought MK Mythologies for example. There are many types of gamers out there but when it comes to fighting games, I feel that the crowd is just a notch above the rest in what they expect out of said genre.

I am missunderstanding why you can't really enjoy those upperlevel fighting games. I don't see why the movesets and commands would give anyone such a problem. After a couple hour's practice, King's multi throws were not just complex inputs, but a reward and payoff and an amazingly cool feeling to pull off on my friends. And the more you practice such complex moves and concepts that are so apparent in toaday's fighters, the simpler they are to achieve constantly. It's really all a matter of muscle memory. Your fingers eventually pull off complicated movesets and combos without much thought after proper training. For me this is the case anyway.

Ivy's summon suffering and calmity symphony are perfect examples of why deep fighters are so much more fun for me. You do not have to use these (at first) amazingly difficult moves. But the option is there. You can go as deep as you want and never know or be able to predict a fight in Soul Calibur 2. Every match you find new ways to avoid impossible scenarios or counter a difficult move. Soul Calibur 2, is an example of how a fighting game should be, IMO. Beginners can pick it up and immediately pull of some awesome fights with fluid animation and cool throws/special moves. Or you can spend hours training in the practice mode and discover one of the deepest fighting engines ever devised. It's like having your cake and eating it too.

But that's just an opinion and maybe MK just prefers to cater to only the pick up and play crowd. That's perfectly o.k. I just wish it were different, being a fan of deep fighters and the past MK games too. That's all.

The stage traps are just visually upgraded ring outs. You can experience the same tension during a match in Soul Calibur. So it's nothing new, at least not for me. But picking up a Lincoln Navigator-sized sword and flailing it about senselessly until it strikes your opponent IS, perhaps, something new. Well, there was Beserk on the Dreamcast though. hehe

I agree with the post about how MK has to keep up with todays current fighters regardless of whether it chooses to sell itself to only the pickup and play gamer or not. But then again, there's those rediculous sales figures that prove that Midway doesn't have to do anything but put 2 letters on the cover, M.K. and it will sell. That just saddens me to think that it will never try to innovate, only borrow and copy and throw in some blood.

This, of course, is all just my opinion. I'm not personally attacking anyone for their taste in games. So please don't take me that way.

NO, u know wat, Mortal KOmbat is the best, all them other fighting games copied it besides SF (even tho i hate SF), u have NOT play MKD so dont talk shit, and if yur a FAN as u say of MK, dont bring the bull crap and start going against it.....get it?

EdenianNinja Wrote: NO, u know wat, Mortal KOmbat is the best, all them other fighting games copied it besides SF (even tho i hate SF), u have NOT play MKD so dont talk shit, and if yur a FAN as u say of MK, dont bring the bull crap and start going against it.....get it?

Your message doesn't deserve a mature response, so...


...WEENIE!





Seriously though, it's obvious Mortal Kombat's gameplay can be improved. These people are just giving their ideas on how MK can be better. They want MK to be all it can be, and since you're trying to stop them from making MK better, YOU are not a true MK fan.