No u know wat, i am a fan fo yo info! AND i agree there are a lot of things that can make mortal kombat better...BUT....the stuff that it has right now has already made it WAY better than other games....fo example...mk is tite and its beaten other games with its mini games...fatalities...konquest and soon to come MKD...people r just haters on mk and i dun like that...ya need to understand that no game can be perfect and there are stuff that can make mk better, but its already beaten SO MANY OTHER games which makes it cool...get it???

O and if yur trying to shut me up, it aint gonna work cuz i got the biggest mouth that always has somethin to say..ok...and i aint no weenie u pendejo

EdenianNinja Wrote: No u know wat, i am a fan fo yo info! AND i agree there are a lot of things that can make mortal kombat better...BUT....the stuff that it has right now has already made it WAY better than other games....fo example...mk is tite and its beaten other games with its mini games...fatalities...konquest and soon to come MKD...people r just haters on mk and i dun like that...ya need to understand that no game can be perfect and there are stuff that can make mk better, but its already beaten SO MANY OTHER games which makes it cool...get it??? O and if yur trying to shut me up, it aint gonna work cuz i got the biggest mouth that always has somethin to say..ok...and i aint no weenie u pendejo

You're right, I can't shut you up. But you can't shut these people up either.

EdenianNinja, we are talking about the Fighting in MK, not the fatalities, mini games, and stuff like that.

We all know that's fine the way it is, We are talking about how to make the game play or "the actual fighting" better.

MK can't be a better fighting game than the other games, if the fighting in MK is not better than in the other games.

MK can't be a better fighting game than the others because it has konquest, puzzle kombat, Fatalities, etc.

It can be a better party game with that stuff, but not a better "Fighting" game.

Do you understand now?


MK doesn't really need to be a copy of VF, Tekken.......

But I think it should be leaning more in that direction. It doesn't need to be as deep, but pretty close, enough to stand by them and not look so basic or lacking.

I think you know what I mean.

I'm talking about the fighting, not the extras.

Adjun, Bleed, and Dr Fatality:

Adjun, I do enjoy SC/VF/Tekken etc, definitely. But it's not the same type of fun I have when I play MK. Trying to nail a simple three hit combo with Akira feels more like doing homework than having any type of relaxing fun. That's why I play video games, that's why we all do.

As for the ideas expressed by Bleed and Dr F, the chain throws, wall throws, and the increased move lists are not, and have never been what MK has been about. Now, you guys are arguing that MK should evolve. That's fine, I agree. But making giving characters 60 to 80 moves won't make it better, it'll make it a clone, just like having multipart throws and wall throws will.

If you want all of that stuff, and I like that stuff also, there are other games for that. MK differentiates itself by offering its own unique style of gameplay. It always has. Just because the game is in 3D, it doesn't mean that MK should automatically become like all of the other 3D fighters out there. The more you guys try to say what would improve MK, the more you guys seem to make the argument that MK should be like other games. I'm sorry, but I'm just not for that.

Dr F, you said that MK needs more useful moves, I whole heartedly agree. I think that the combo system should be much more open ended, and I agree with HDtran about properties. Definitely. I also like some of the move ideas given by Tony. But the idea here should be to add to the gameplay while remaining within the realm of what MK has always been.

That said, I think the creators are doing a good job from what I've heard/read. Speeding the game up, adding more special moves per character, more pop up moves, bringing back teleports and uppercuts etc etc. These types of improvements jive with what MK has always been. MK has never had a complex throw system and in my opinion the series wouldn't benefit much from having one. MK has never been about the quanity of regular moves, it's been about the special moves and the combos. Sure, it's old school, but that's why MK fans like it, because we've always liked this series. I'm not some mindless automoton who buys anything with the letters M-K on the box. I have always played MK for the aesthetics as well as the gameplay mechanics.

I want MK:D, MK7 etc etc to be the best games they can be, certainly, but I don't want them to be ripping ideas from other games, and that's what it sounds like some of you guys want. To me, that's not innovation, that's plagerism.

I think any game mechanic can easily be put with an MK spin on it to keep it still MK.

However, I am not a fan of multithrows even though they are so easy to get out of and so slow that no one uses them in even casual level play. I would prefer if MK went the route of two simple throws, each done with two different buttons or what have you, and then a button to break each. More bigger and complex throws for bigger characters that require different breaks besides hitting 1 or 2, sure. But Mulit-throws aren't as important as people make them out to be, I mean I don't think anyone here plays Tekken and really uses Multi-throws in any situation. Instead more complex throws such as Ivy's Summon Suffering mentioned above might be nice, as well as off the ground throws for non-techers like Goh or Aoi from VF4E. Throws are easily added with MK flavor since you can do whatever crazy animation you want to add during a throw.

I think you can hardly call MK jacking anything from any specific game since every 3d fighter has a certain form of certain things.

Guard Impact is basically just a flashy looking parry. Parrying/Reversals/etc. has been in Tekken and Virtua Fighter and even Dead or Alive for over half a decade now. MK themselves had a parry/reversal system with the SM button for some characters remember? I'm pretty sure MK wouldn't be less MK for implementing a better system to handle these. People definately can't say you're jacking another game's system for implementing a good parry/reversal/counter system. Since that's like saying you're stealing another fighting game's style by allowing characters to punch. Especially if different stances limited you to what certain defensive options you had, then you would be much more inclined to use them. Again, I suppose you can do something super funky here and spin it to be really MK-themed, but seeing as how all the live action movies, konquest series, media, and even some of the past game moves have shown reversal like moves where you catch someone's foot or arm or whatever, it fits perfectly into MK gameplay.

As for weapon fighting... they really need to take some of the Soul Calibur things to heart in terms of understanding how weapon fighting should be. Because right now, Weapon Stance is a stance where you get hit 25% harder for absolutely no gain at all. Weapon stances that are actually good amount upto only around 2-3 in the entire game. Most weapon stance movelists are basically exchanging all of your speed/damage/delay for Damage, but losing so much speed and gaining so much delay means you'll never EVER land anything against anyone who is good. You will also get jabbed the hell out of you into a full string and mixups will hurt, even coming from Subby's D+3. Weapon Stance just needs a lot of the move properties Soul Calibur has. More Guard crushing moves, more stagger moves, more unblockables, more stepping moves, etc. Otherwise there is hardly a reason to use it. Although I think weapons should cause more chipping damage on block (against a non-weapon stance), not have the damage penalty, etc. As of right now, Weapon Fighting is worthless in MK. For the characters that NEED to use their weapon stance, that's not because their weapon stances are particularly good or even decent, but that their hand-to-hand stances are so horrible.

That's what I was thinking, MK can't really be copying.


There are just some things that are done during a fight that should be implemented in to video games.

Anyway, there is nothing really original about MK's game play. It's just variations on stuff that has already been done by other games.

I'm all for that, because some things just need to be there.

I also don't believe that giving MK a lot more moves or options with moves would take anything away from MK. On the contrary, I think it would add to it.

If some people don't want to learn a bunch of moves they don't have to, that's the beauty of it. This way both sides are happy.

Also with the hard moves in VF with Akira, I agree it can get frustrating, but for some reason, I can't stop using Akira. I can do all his moves pretty much on call, but there is that one knee pop up he has that's almost impossible to do. G+K~k

I don't mind if some really strong moves are harder to pull off, but I don't like it when they are almost impossible. IMO that just interferes with game play. I mean for Akira's pop up knee, it could just have been something like:

K,> like Mitsurugi's knee in SC2.
or >+G+K

Something like that would be better and way more practical.

His Dragon lance combo I think that's what it's called, could just be made a little easier to pull off, maybe df+G+k, F+P, B,F+P+K.

That right there would make it a lot more user friendly, If I mess up with that combo, it's usually on the last hit.

*REALLY REALLY OLD POST*




Im gonna talk a bit about SOME of the stuff I put in the “essay” on pages 3+4. I feel some things need to be added.



“The reversal animation in MKDA was very unpolished. When the person successfully connected with a reversal the character would lock onto the opponent, but the hand didn’t really have contact with the body part, making it looked rushed and silly. When the reversal connects the character should automatically go into the animation of that particular character reversal.”

Examples:

Sub-Zero


1. Sub-Zero locks onto opponents leg/arm and immediately freezes it. The opponent falls to the ground and roll in pain, giving Sub-Zero an oki opportunity.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you a special command when Sub clinches onto the opponent’s body part sub will freeze their body part, but this time as the opponent begins to fall to the ground the frozen arm/leg spreads to their whole body, causing them to be frozen and giving you a free combo.

Scorpion

1. When scorpion locks onto the opponent’s arm/leg flips behind the opponent with Ninja like grace and cracks their neck.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you input a special command when scorp is about to crack the opponent’s neck scorpion’s neck crack will do extra damage. As they fall to the ground Scorpion will put his hands together as if he were focusing energy. His whole body would become engulfed in flames for 2 seconds and Scorpion’s aggressor meter would boost by 2 blocks.

Johnny Cage

1. When Cage locks onto the opponent’s arm/leg he would say something(can’t think of anything, but something..Johnny Cagey) and then he should launch them high into the air(think Jeet Kune Do’s back+1 attack, but it launches them much higher). As they are in the air Cage puts on his Shades, as they are coming down Johnny charges up and unleashes a green shadow kick.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you input a special command when Cage launches them into the air Cage will do a red shadow kick instead of a green one. No matter what stage or you are on this will ALWAYS cause a wall hit, as they hit the hall you hear a crunching noise, cage then puts on his shades and is suorrunded by a sparkly aura. His aggressor is now full.

Obviously from the examples you can tell that I believe Cage should have some of the deadliest Just Frames in the game. To counter this they should also be EXTREMELY hard to do of course. Harder than other Just Frames.


“Weapon Throws should be included in this game. Each character should have one, and they all do over at least 30 damage. They should have difficult commands and look very flashy. Everyone’s weapon throw should have a different escape, forcing players who want to become good to find out the escape for all of them. Naturally characters who depend more on their weapons than others like Quan Chi and Drahmin should have the best weapon throws.”

Examples

Johnny Cage

Johnny Cage does a 6 or 7 hit combo that’s is fast and ends it with a whack that sends them flying back

Sub-Zero

Sub-Zero swings his kori blade upwards and launchers the opponent into the air. Sub Draws his sword upward and the water particles in the air slows begin to surround the Kori Blade, giving it an aura sort of look. Think Nightmare’s winning taunt in SC2 where he raises his sword, but instead of it being souls or whatever that surrounds it there would be ice particles. As they hit the ground Sub-Zero immediately slam the sword hard into the ground, doing a good amount of damage to the opponent.

Quan Chi

Quan chi puts his two broadswords together and a bring light surround them. The Broadswords unify and turn into the living weapon. Quan Chi then points the living weapon at the dizzy opponent and unleashes a swarm of fly that slowy drain away their health. This would do great damage.



“Ground throws should be exclusive to big time grapplers like Jax and Kano. Ground throws are for when the opponent is on the ground. These throws are normally some sort of or leg wrench or something like that. They should do solid damage but be very escapeable.”

EXAMPLES

Jax

Jax grabs onto both of the opponents legs and swings them upward and slams them into the ground

Kano

Kano kneels down and grabs onto the opponent’s head. He then says in a heavy Australian accent “are you ok” and bashes your head into the ground. Some of the tile shatters.

“I think every character in MKDA should have the ability to utilize the different arena structures and perform a throw. Whether be against the cactus on Edenia Dessert or on the icicles of The Lin Kuei Temple. Each throw for each character should look the same so there are no arenas advantages.”

1. Character grabs onto opponent’s head and smashes it into a cactus, causing blood to squirt out.
2. Character grabs icicles off of the walls. They storye it somewhere, and by tapping a shoulder button the characters tosses them all out at once.



4. Character Specific Movement

“One thing missing from MKDA was character specific movement. Characters should have certain ways of maneuvering around the arena that no other character has. Of course everyone would have the standard walk,dash,duck and side step, but every character should have other alternatives for advanced play. A couple of examples

Raiden – Teleportation..simple as that. It should now be packed to the brim with options unlike the simple d,u in the past games. Besides the d,u, raiden should also have a teleport that takes him straight to the opponents face as well as an air teleport that goes over specials such as the spear and freeze. While the teleporting the opponent should also be able to buffer in attacks. So for example..suppose the teleportation to face command is qcf+2 and his shock till you drop throw is b,f,f+2+4, while teleporting the player can input the STYD throw so as soon as raiden is in their face he will grab them and perform the throw. Since this can easily become unbalanced raiden should have some of the biggest throw escape windows in the game. The teleport should also be able to take raiden to either side and he should have a teleport that takes him near the closest useable item on an arena.

Nitara – why flight of course. It should be a little like sindel’s flight in MK Trilogy. Only she should have an air throw and a lot more attack opitions. Flight mode should be more like a stance than just a movement. I can’t really give you advice as to how to go about doing this, but I have faith in midway.

These are just two examples. This is what would make MK unique compared to other fighters. Since no other fighter has this kind of stuff, Hardcore players will be attracted to the in depth throw game, the interesting plot and gameplay AND the brand spanking new character specific movement stuff in mk6.”

Well, I think I should add that besides character-esque movement that ALL CHARACTERS should also have professionally looking, martial art based movement. Since I don’t know much about martial arts, I’ll just give a few examples from the fighting games I play. I play Hwoarang in Tekken 4, so expect a few examples from him.
1. The Angel Step – The movement for Cassandra in Soul Calibur 2. She crouch dashes in then side steps. So this movements zones in AND side steps at the same time making it very versatile.

2. The Triple Side Step – One of Hwoarang’s many movements from tekken 4. When you do f+3 with Hwoarang in any Tekken he goes into flamingo stances, but when this happens he also does a slight side step. Also, the side step flamingo is bigger than the normal side steps, so if you sidestep,press f+3 and then side step again while in flamingo it will produce the largest side step in the whole game. If you do this when a opponent does a vertical attack it may very well take hwoarang all the way to their back guaranteeing him some stuff.

3. The Mist Step – Lee’s movement in Tekken 4. By tapping forward lee does a dash that goes under all high attacks and sometimes a couple mid attacks! The beauty of this technique is the fact that Lee can link things into his miststep ! The mist step command is forward~neutral. 1,2 is Lee’s jab combo can can be linked into his Mist Step. So for example something like 1,2~forward~neutral~1,2~forward~neutral is very possible and is used by all high level lee players. It looks very cool in juggles as well.

4. The BT Run – A movement that me and my friends came up with in Bloody Roar: Primal Fury. NOTE if anyone came up with this before me please don’t flame me ..heh. So anyway, there are certain moves in BR that when done makes the opponent turn arrounds. So now the controls are reversed. Forward is back and back is forward. So by tapping back once and then tapping it again by holding on, the character begins to basically run away in the other direction. This is good for when time is running out and you have the lead. Of course faster characters like Bakyru have more uses with this than slow characters like Basuzima. Perhaps in MK6 this can become something that only a select amount of characters have.

5. The Hussle – This is something that many Hwoarang players do without even realizing. Hwoarang has many stances, but easiest ones to access are his back turned stance and his right foot forward stance. To get into back turned you simple have to press 1+2 and to get into right foot forward you simply have to press 3+4. Pressing either one again takes him back to facing front and left foot forward. So by quickly mashing 1+2~1+2~3+4~3+4 Hwoarang can do some pretty crazy looking stuff. This is one of the reasons why Hwoarang is known as “crazy legs” for his various movement. This really has no SERIOUS USE, but it’s a psyche out. You can also quickly stop doing this and throw out a low punch or even a throw, so it really messes with their head.

6. The Hayashadia Dash – This works for Paul,Bryan and Nina in Tekken 4. Basically what this does Is the character does a sway back(a back dash that cover more range basically) then quickly does a side step. Command for this is d,d/b,b,u. So basically you swing your stick/pad from down all the way to up really fast. If you continue to do this the character will quick backdash and side step. This gets the character away quickly and also sidesteps so you can punish those who try to retaliate. Any Tekken experts can correct some of the stuff because not only do I not play Paul,Nina or Bryan, but Im also not the brightest of Tekken 4 players. Im sure Saty can correct some of my errors, but I think I am on the right track with this.

Those are just a few examples .I can’t really think of any more, but you get the point. Movement like this would give players more options and make for looser gameplay so the characters no longer feel stiff.

I have nothing to quote from the Return of The Agressor idea from my “essay” but here are a few ideas as to what some character’s aggressor could look like

Johnny Cage put his shades on and is surrounded by a sparkly aura. Like all other characters, Cage’s aggressor would boost his speed,power,frame advantage, throw damage and reduce wall damage. Cage’s special aggressor attribute would be that he cannot be reversed or parried for the 10 seconds that his aggressor lasts.

Kenhi’s sword would glow red with the souls of his ancestors, and his whole body would be surrounded by a red aura. Like I just said(and I won’t refer to this anymore) all character’s aggressor would give them extra speed,power,range advantage,throw damage and reduce wall damage. Kenshi’s special aggressor attriubute would be that all moves involving telekinesis all have more range and cause guard stun if blocked.

Sub-Zero’s muscles would bulk up and the ice on his body would thicken. He would of course be surrounded by a blew aura and his eyes would now be ENTIRELY bright blue. Sub Zero’s reversals now do more damage, and all damage done to Sub-Zero is cut in half.

Quan Chi would have the good old blur effect. When in this state when you input the command of ANY of your opponent’s moves you can now use it. You can only do this for 3 of your opponent’s moves per aggressor. If you’d like to steal more moves when you’re in aggressor again and you already have 3 moves stolen you must press both of your shoulder buttons to RANDOMLY get rid of one the specials you stole. The moves you stole are your to keep for the rest of the match if you like whether you are in aggressor or not. You’re opponent can still use the specials you stole. Each time you do one of the stolen specials you lose 10% health.

Scorpion would become engulfed in fire and take off his mask. When Scorpion is in Aggressor EVERYTHING he does is consider to be a counter hit. However, everything done to Scorpion is also a counter hit. Because counter hits already increase damage Scorpion would not have the power increase that all the other characters get from the aggressor. Each time your opponent reverses Scorpion they take 10% health. The spear is now unsidesteppable.

These are just a couple of my ideas.


“ Come on guys..these are punches and kicks. I believe if someone sweeped me and my fell on my ass it’d hurt..a lot. My point is that low attacks should do a lot more damage.”

Examples

1. Shang Tsung and Sub-Zero’s sweeps should now do ATLEAST 15% instead of the measly 8 % they do in MKDA.
2. Li Mei’s many sweeps should also do more damage.
3. The low pokes that do absolutely no damage should now do a little bit more to give them some sort of use.



“Delayable attacks would throw off timing, add frame advantage and power to moves and would simply add depth to an already deep game. For example. Each punch of Jax’s Piston punch could be delayable. So instead of being just d,f+1 like in MKDA it could be qcf+1,1,1,1,1. Each punch can be delayed or sped up however you like. If you delay each punch would do more damage,etc. Some throws should also be delayable. Lastly, when you delay something it should cause the character to charge up kind of like in SC2. When I say charge I basically mean they have cool sparks and stuff ya know the drill.”

EXAMPLES

1.Sub-Zero’s Ice Shaker. If you hold onto 2 when you do b,d+2 he will pause and not do the ice shaker until you let go. The longer your hold on the longer they will be frozen if the ice shaker connects.

2.Sub-Zero’s freeze. Holding onto 1 when you do d,f+1 will cause sub to charge up sort of like Goku’s Kamehameha attack in Dragon Ball. The longer you hold on the longer the opponent will be frozen if it connects.

3.Delaying Raiden’s thunder rush(f,f+4 I think is the command) would give it guard stun and make it to do more damage.\

4.Scorpion’s pop up in Ninja Sword(press 3) if delayed would cause a guard stun and would do more damage.



“Wall teching should be a lot harder in MK6. in MKDA if you are hit against a wall you could simply tap up or down to wall tech and there was no timing to it at all. In MK6 when someone is near a wall they should piss their pizants. It should be the core of damage the OWNAGE spot. Because frankly, with all the character specific movement and deeper gameplay there really should be no reason for you to be against a wall.. The wall techning should need to be timed perfectly.”

Imagine Jax OWNING YA UP against a wall because you cant tech..ouch .nasty.


“Taking a page out of Soul Calibur 2 you guys shoul’d make certain move’s cancelable. For example the ice shaker is b,d+2 in MKDA, but by doing b,d+2~block sub will start the animation but go straight back to blocking. This would throw off opponent’s timing big time. Throws should be cancelable as well.”

CANCELABLE ATTACK EXAMPLES

1. Scorpion’s Summon Hell Fire
2. Jax’s Piston Punch
3. Sub-Zero Ice Shaker
4. Cage’s Johnny Uppercut
5. Kitana’s Fan Wave
6. Drahmin’s Ground Pound
7. Throw attacks
8. Some basic attacks(punches,kicks,weapon attacks)




“Keep in mind that MK is now a 3D game. Tell me what 3D game has block damage these days. It just doesn’t work midway. In the old school MKs and in other 2D games like MVC2 and CVS2 it’s a necessity, but in MKDA it just makes it harder for defensive characters to .well .defend.”

I still stick by this comment strongly. No 3D fighter that is out has chip damage. This would slightly help out damage. Pressure character like Bo Rai Cho,Jax, Kung Lao and Reptile wouldn’t be quiet as good if it weren’t for chip.




“Im not sure how to explain this, but putting frame advantage into MK6 would be kind of difficult with the blocking system in MKDA. Here’s why. Sonya’s Tae Kwon Do: 3 is safe on block because it knocks the opponent back a considerable amount of distance. However, if Sonya does TKD:3 and I let go of block as soon as 3 is over I will not move back and I will be comfortable In front of Sonya, ready to punish with my 50% combo. So im not trying to go all tekken on you, but maybe you should use their blocking system. Where to block you hold back. This way there would be no way to cheat blocking. But honestly I don’t know how else this would work. I am not trying to make MK tekken , but im not sure how to make frame advantage work with the current blocking system. Ask MKL, he plays DOA and if I remember correctly you block the same way in DOA as you do in MKDA. Dunno ”

Can someone in DOA tell me how their block system works? It’s the only fighter I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same block system as DOA, and also, does DOA have frame advantage? I someone how doubt FA are possible with that type of block.



“First and foremost no more “everything is guaranteed combos”. This simply cannot happen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with branch combos, but they should not be guaranteed on hit under any circum stance.
2 . Counter Hit system needs to be put in MK6. Im sure you know what counter hitting is, but just in case. I’ll use Tekken 4 as an example, though many games has this system. Ok Im using Kazuya Mashima, possibly the most CH dependant character in Tekken 4, and you are using Paul. Now Kazuya has a move called the Demon God Fist(while rising+2) it’s a hook punch that does ok damage. However, if paul did his Phoenix Smasher when Kazuya does his while rising+2 and Kazuya’s move wr+2 hits first, it will cause a counter hit. Unlike the regular wr+2, on counter hit paul would hold onto his gut and crumble down a bit. Now you are in Kazuya’s world. From here on you can do 1,2,TGF while he is crumpling for a total of like 70% damage. This is how the combo system should be done in MK6. So for example, Sub Zero’s 1,2,b+2 should not be guaranteed on hit. 1,2 should, but the b+2 should only be guaranteed if the 1,2 hit on CH. Another example would be Scorpion’s Pi Gua 4. On regular hit it does a little damage and DOES NOT cause stun on hit(it does in MKDA, but fix this for MK6), however, if 4 hits on CH it does much more damage and guarantees a Ninja Sword: 4,1,1,3. I have no problem with massive combos, but players should have to work for it. If you don’t like my counter hitting idea because it’s too Tekken/Soul Calibur/Bloody Roar for your liking then find out another way to stop guaranteed combos off the first hit”

I don’t have any examples right now..except maybe one. In MKDA’s Scorpion’s Pi Gua: 4 was way too good because it was safe and on hit guaranteed a hell fire. It also stunned the opponent..allowing to mix up some more. I believe the stun and guaranteed hell fire should only work if it hits on counter hit. Unless it does I think it should a lot less damage and shouldn’t stun at all.

Note that these are just a FEW things that I thought needed to be added. There is a lot more stuff that I typed, and I hope you check it out when you get on the team, Ray.

A couple of things that I don’t think I put that needs to be said.

For the most part low attacks should not be safe at all. If you look at MKDA one of the reasons why the game was extremely broken was because the top characters all had low attacks that were 100% safe. Bo’s d+4, Scorpion’s 4, Reptile’s b+3 and Drahmin’s b+3 are just a few examples. Now a lot of those attacks were only safe because of the back dash cancel, so since you guys are hopefully taking that out those won’t be safe anymore, and the lows that were safe regardless of a BDC or not(rep’s b+3 and bo’s d+4) should be VERY punishable if blocked.

One thing that made low attacks hard to punish in MKDA is the fact that there were no while standing attacks. For example, suppose Bo’s d+4 was not safe in DA. I would still need to stand up and attack you, giving you time to recover. From playing SC2 you know exactly what I mean Ray. When I block low and avoid your low attack I can let go of block and down, and as I rise up I can quickly press a buton to do an attack called a while rising attack. This makes punishing low attacks a lot easier and adds a lot more moves to the game automatically.

Another set of moves that are far too safe are pop up attacks. No attack that launches the opponent into the air should be safe..PERIOD. Crab b+2 = 100% safe, Bo’s u+4 and b+4 in Mi Zong = near 100% safe and there are a bunch of other examples. Pop ups should be for punishing unsafe attacks. You shouldn’t have the ability of throwing them out whenever you want. Now I can see if the pop up combo you are doing is a JUST FRAME version of a regular pop up I can see that being safe and even causing guard stun, but not a regular pop up.

One thing I thought that every MK(with the exception of UMK3 with run jabs) doesn’t have is something that EVERYONE in the game has that balances the engine out. Like in SF 3rd Strike everyone has a parry like Bleed exaplined. Soul Calibur has guard impact. Hell, even Bloody Roar has a unique “counter” attack that everyone has, but in MK that “thing” doesn’t really exist, and I hope this changes. Reversal,parries,movement and all that stuff will help out a lot, and most importantly frame advantage, but there should also be something is unique to MK6.

One thing that has me REALLY,REALLY,REALLY excited is the fact that Ed Boon hinted that Midway is going to take Level interaction to a whole new level. Running up walls and flipping off, swinging off poles..omg. I just can’t imagine a fighter with awesome characters,stories,secrets a deep core engine AND level interaction. And to put the icing on the cake..online play. I just REALLY hope Midway gives the MK team time to perfect it. MKDA was far too rushed. I wouldn’t mind waiting till 2005 to play a finely crafted game.

That’s all for now.

Can someone in DOA tell me how their block system works? It’s the only fighter I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same block system as DOA, and also, does DOA have frame advantage? I someone how doubt FA are possible with that type of block.

DOA has both, you can block with the free button (which is also used for countering) AND it gives you the option to hold backwards to block. I'm not sure about frame advantage but the attacks have different hit properties. Some cause an opponent to slip, others stun by having the character hold wherever they had been hit with pain, and there are the limbo stuns which if a move that inflicts this is connected it makes the victim wide open and unable to block.

And before some n00b starts spouting how DOA is teh butt0n mash3r, I just want to say a few things.

Yes, DOA readily accomodates button mashing.. Not because it's overly simple, but because each fighter's move list has a mountain of stringed combos. That's all people really see in DOA when they watch newbies play, they don't see the one hit moves that can do limbo stuns and such. That's why when you see two experienced DOA players fighting you don't see people wildly flailing about combos, that's because of two reasons.

1. They are usually easy to reverse.
2. If an opponent pulls of a counter hit it will usually stun the aggressor which leaves them open.

Most experienced DOA players won't throw around the big flashy combos until their stuff is pretty damn guarenteed in a juggle or after a stun. Some characters like Hitomi can do a little dodge attack like her u, u, + P or her d, d, + K which will make her side step and hit her opponent with a stunning attack.

The parry/reversal system is also a little more sophistocated then most people realize. Some characters like Bayman and Lei Fang, have advanced reversals that require better timing more command inputs to activate. The result for Bayman is higher damage and a cooler looking animation. For example for Bayman's mid punch reversal, normally he would just grab the opponents arm and snap their neck but with the advanced counter he'll do a german suplex and then snap their neck.

Bayman also has chain counters so where the inital reversal will throw an opponent to the ground, another input will make him put his opponent into an arm bar.

Characters like Lei Fang however will throw a character off balance which leaves them open for a combo. For example, if an opponent kicks at her and she does the advanced counter she'll catch their leg, shove them away so they face away from her.

Also, most of the characters in DOA have second or even third stances which open up more moves and combos to them. For example, Ayane is decent in her normal stance but she becomes a BEAST with her back turned towards her foe. She has huge combos and has high priority but there is a drawback, attacks done to a character's back do more damage than normal. So while Ayane becomes stronger, she becomes weaker too.

Also, side stepping and moving around an arena is important too. Most characters have special throws or attacks that can only be performed against walls. Take Hitomi for example, her d/f, d/f, throw move normally would make make her punch her opponent a few times in the stomach before doing a jumping knee to their face but against a wall she'll pin them against the wall and throw more punches and knee them in the stomach which causes more damage.

Not to mention that DOA also already has the interactive backgrounds that MK is getting this time around.

...And that's just my little splurge on the game.

baraka407 Wrote: Adjun, Bleed, and Dr Fatality: Adjun, I do enjoy SC/VF/Tekken etc, definitely. But it's not the same type of fun I have when I play MK. Trying to nail a simple three hit combo with Akira feels more like doing homework than having any type of relaxing fun. That's why I play video games, that's why we all do. As for the ideas expressed by Bleed and Dr F, the chain throws, wall throws, and the increased move lists are not, and have never been what MK has been about. Now, you guys are arguing that MK should evolve. That's fine, I agree. But making giving characters 60 to 80 moves won't make it better, it'll make it a clone, just like having multipart throws and wall throws will. If you want all of that stuff, and I like that stuff also, there are other games for that. MK differentiates itself by offering its own unique style of gameplay. It always has. Just because the game is in 3D, it doesn't mean that MK should automatically become like all of the other 3D fighters out there. The more you guys try to say what would improve MK, the more you guys seem to make the argument that MK should be like other games. I'm sorry, but I'm just not for that. Dr F, you said that MK needs more useful moves, I whole heartedly agree. I think that the combo system should be much more open ended, and I agree with HDtran about properties. Definitely. I also like some of the move ideas given by Tony. But the idea here should be to add to the gameplay while remaining within the realm of what MK has always been. That said, I think the creators are doing a good job from what I've heard/read. Speeding the game up, adding more special moves per character, more pop up moves, bringing back teleports and uppercuts etc etc. These types of improvements jive with what MK has always been. MK has never had a complex throw system and in my opinion the series wouldn't benefit much from having one. MK has never been about the quanity of regular moves, it's been about the special moves and the combos. Sure, it's old school, but that's why MK fans like it, because we've always liked this series. I'm not some mindless automoton who buys anything with the letters M-K on the box. I have always played MK for the aesthetics as well as the gameplay mechanics. I want MK:D, MK7 etc etc to be the best games they can be, certainly, but I don't want them to be ripping ideas from other games, and that's what it sounds like some of you guys want. To me, that's not innovation, that's plagerism.

Your right,All of the MK games were big improvments over each other.Although MK4 was rushed but a alright game.So this leads to MKD having more moves ETC.

Don't get me wrong MKDA is my fav MK following MK2 and 1.I started thinking about all of the stuff they were adding to MKD.With the Speed,more counters,wall shove.Yeah in a way there small changes.But Speed and the rest of the stuff I mentioned will have a BIG effect on the fighting in the game.Which is good.Plus the Death traps.Alot of people will disagree with me when I say "The Death Traps will play a major part of the fighting."It definetly will.Not only will we have to learn moves we're also going to have to learn the stages.That right there shows DEPTH and complexity.I know other fighting games have their own spin off of a Ring Out(Soul Calibur,Virtua Fighter) but in MKD the traps will be in every level.It's more strategy and mind games involved now.

The death traps do add strategy, no doubt about that.

I really like the idea of the ring out with the MK twist.

I always thought ring outs were a bit of a cheap win for n00bs out there, i suppose it's up to the rest not to let that happen and try to ignore their button mashing

Well hopefully not all the stages will have death traps on them so a different strategy would have to be used on the non-death trap stages... stage weapons will also add another element which is similar to MK4 in a way, but is MKish... so MKD might not be as horrible as MKDA, but it would rock if these fighting system comments were implemented...later

wow! dang, yal talk a lot

with the whole stage fatality thing going on that right there is basically a ring out. if they didnt have those spots that show you where to stand to perform a stage fatality then the game could become a very psychological game. especially online when you dont know wether your opponent knows how to perform the right move or not.

This is by far the best thread on this entire site.

God, if only this thread was something felt by the majority of MK fans.

Hopefully someone at midway has read this thread and has thought about some of the things written.

If not...whatever.

colguile Wrote: This is by far the best thread on this entire site. God, if only this thread was something felt by the majority of MK fans. Hopefully someone at midway has read this thread and has thought about some of the things written. If not...whatever.

Over on the Deadly Alliance board, rayokka was pretty concerned about the gameplay. Although for Deception it probably won't have most of the stuff here (which is unfortunate, but Midway doesn't delay ANYTHING) the best we can hope for is at least a DECENT fighting engine.

Basically, just this:

- Each style can be used. (advanatages and disadvantages)
- Most combos can be used. (advanatages and disadvantages)
- Movements are no longer stiff. (manual combos)
- Movements are faster. (manual combos)

ugh edited.

Well said versitile.People are making a some good points in this thread.mk1 fighting system was great,it is even faster than deadly alliance in gameplay.Let me tell you guys what really messed up deadly alliance for me.First it didn't had the right characters,the gameplay was slow,the characters didn't reacted the right way when been hit or stunned,and it needed more rolling in it.Have you notice MK:DA the characters won't fall on the ground and role like a real fight would if midway don't stop focusing on koquest,chess and those bullshit and knowing mk is going too be online they are really going too screw up this game.Midway need too stop thinking all we need are fatality,deathtraps,minigames and classic characters if we never start getting up as mkfans too make mk be the best fighting game once again it's going too remain a powerful novel that it is or go straight down the drain.They are doing a good job with the returning of the teleports attacks but it's not enough,this game is going to be online,repeat online so ed boon and his mkteam better start focusing on gameplay for online and not for online chess.

baraka407 Wrote: Adjun: I don't think Boon is only bragging about how great the sales have been. In interviews that I've seen, he seems to be excited about the fact that the game will be faster, teleports and uppercuts are going to return (both of which should make a classic MK fan like yourself happy), and the environments will play a much bigger part in the battles. I consider that a gameplay tweak when you factor in just HOW MUCH they'll be involved in strategy and what not. As for being able to say that I TOTALLY enjoyed MK:DA, I can't say that. Then again, I can't say that I've ever TOTALLY enjoyed any fighting game. Virtua Fighter 4 is great. The graphics are awesome, the sounds are cool, but I know we're talking gameplay here. That said, I enjoy the combos, the counters, the multipart throws, the studders, the feints, the fakes, etc etc. That said, I think the moves are WAY to freakin hard to pull off. If you've never played VF, and you select Akira, I hope you have 48 thumbs, a bottle of gin, and some padding on anything a controller might hit. Same goes for Tekken. I thought that Gon, Boskonovich, Kuma/Panda, and all of those other useless, lame ass characters were a waste of space, and I was pissed at how so many characters were duplicates. I hated how Kings multithrows generally required 88 thumbs. I felt like the game was insulting me by asking me to do all of this complicated crap. I thought that every character having a ten hit combo was lame as well. But there were lots of things that I liked about Tekken 3. I can find flaws in any fighting game, gameplay or aesthetic wise. But yes, I genuinely had fun playing MK:DA, and I think alot of other fans on this site did as well. Can it be improved? Sure, of course it can. That's why there are sequels (well, that and making money of course), to attempt to perfect things and make things better. It's just a different system, and you have to get used to it. Sure, like HDtran has said, there are alot of useless moves, and I wish they weren't in there either, but this is MK to me, and its fun. Not because it's MK, but because of the fighting styles, branch combos, special moves, black button alterations etc. Like it or hate it, whichever, but I like it. Understand that the "majority" of which you speak liked it as well. This is an MK fan site after all, and I think that if MK:DA really was a steaming pile as some here think, there really wouldn't be that many people here. Just my opinion.

I couldn't agree more with you man and I'm good at VF and Tekken.

I would also like to say once again to the people who are putting the fighting system down. If you guys have played any MK games then you know the fighting engine was never the biggest part of the game that drew you into the game, each MK evolved a bit each game. So stop expecting it to turn into something it's not.

I don't see how hard it is to realize that MK probably will never be one of deepest fighters when you guys are MK fans. MK isn't any different then it was back then. It was always the 2-D fighter with many big juggles combos due to being broken, but that's also what made it fun since you didn't have no safe guards holding you back.
Now it's it 3-D with big juggles combos due to no safe guards and what not.

Didn't you guys wake up yet and realize some things in life will never change. Many things in life stay the same when they can be improved upon alot but yet they are only improved upon a bit over time. That is life, get over it.

With that all said, I wouldn't mind seeing it improved upon at all, but I'm also not complaning about it or expecting it. I'm already impressed with what they said so far and aslong as they come through with their words then I will be more then happy.

Cheers all

-Mike

CMETH Wrote: baraka407 Wrote: Adjun: I don't think Boon is only bragging about how great the sales have been. In interviews that I've seen, he seems to be excited about the fact that the game will be faster, teleports and uppercuts are going to return (both of which should make a classic MK fan like yourself happy), and the environments will play a much bigger part in the battles. I consider that a gameplay tweak when you factor in just HOW MUCH they'll be involved in strategy and what not. As for being able to say that I TOTALLY enjoyed MK:DA, I can't say that. Then again, I can't say that I've ever TOTALLY enjoyed any fighting game. Virtua Fighter 4 is great. The graphics are awesome, the sounds are cool, but I know we're talking gameplay here. That said, I enjoy the combos, the counters, the multipart throws, the studders, the feints, the fakes, etc etc. That said, I think the moves are WAY to freakin hard to pull off. If you've never played VF, and you select Akira, I hope you have 48 thumbs, a bottle of gin, and some padding on anything a controller might hit. Same goes for Tekken. I thought that Gon, Boskonovich, Kuma/Panda, and all of those other useless, lame ass characters were a waste of space, and I was pissed at how so many characters were duplicates. I hated how Kings multithrows generally required 88 thumbs. I felt like the game was insulting me by asking me to do all of this complicated crap. I thought that every character having a ten hit combo was lame as well. But there were lots of things that I liked about Tekken 3. I can find flaws in any fighting game, gameplay or aesthetic wise. But yes, I genuinely had fun playing MK:DA, and I think alot of other fans on this site did as well. Can it be improved? Sure, of course it can. That's why there are sequels (well, that and making money of course), to attempt to perfect things and make things better. It's just a different system, and you have to get used to it. Sure, like HDtran has said, there are alot of useless moves, and I wish they weren't in there either, but this is MK to me, and its fun. Not because it's MK, but because of the fighting styles, branch combos, special moves, black button alterations etc. Like it or hate it, whichever, but I like it. Understand that the "majority" of which you speak liked it as well. This is an MK fan site after all, and I think that if MK:DA really was a steaming pile as some here think, there really wouldn't be that many people here. Just my opinion. I couldn't agree more with you man and I'm good at VF and Tekken. I would also like to say once again to the people who are putting the fighting system down. If you guys have played any MK games then you know the fighting engine was never the biggest part of the game that drew you into the game, each MK evolved a bit each game. So stop expecting it to turn into something it's not. I don't see how hard it is to realize that MK probably will never be one of deepest fighters when you guys are MK fans. MK isn't any different then it was back then. It was always the 2-D fighter with many big juggles combos due to being broken, but that's also what made it fun since you didn't have no safe guards holding you back. Now it's it 3-D with big juggles combos due to no safe guards and what not. Didn't you guys wake up yet and realize some things in life will never change. Many things in life stay the same when they can be improved upon alot but yet they are only improved upon a bit over time. That is life, get over it. With that all said, I wouldn't mind seeing it improved upon at all, but I'm also not complaning about it or expecting it. I'm already impressed with what they said so far and aslong as they come through with their words then I will be more then happy. Cheers all -Mike

There's still a big difference however. In the 2d MK's everything was pretty useful. In MKDA, there is only one useful low attack or one useful option for anything with canned chains. In a 3d game, the reason you have a bigger movelist is because moves have properties, allow you to get certain things from moves other than speed/delay/damage ratio. But in MKDA, there are no such states and there are no reasons for doing things such as using 80% of the moves that exist. Because if you think about it, if you can use your fastest/safest/most damaging low, why would you use anything else? Especially the non-safe ones? You wouldn't. In 2d, MK didn't have this problem because everything was generic, but still used. In 3d, moves need properties to have usage. Otherwise there is no reason to use most of the moves because they just aren't as effective.

This isn't complexity, it's 3d basics.

As for me, I'm not expecting MK to become very deep any time soon. IMO things will happen, but very slowly.

Maybe it will start to get there by MK9 or MK10. That's just the way it's looking for me right now.

There could be many reasons for this. Maybe they want the game to stay simple, they don't like complex games, they don't want to overwhelm the fans with too much all of a sudden.

It could just be a business strategy, to keep the game going longer by adding stuff slower to make every new game feel fresh, who knows.

I'd rather they just did most of it at once though. I don't like baby steps.

I'm just hoping the MK developers especially Ed is open minded about these ideas.

Pointing all these things out might make some things click that wouldn't have otherwise.

Like when you go.......Ooooooh man, why didn't I think of that.

Or if the developers see what people are asking for, they might lean in a certain direction.

If nothing is said, or pointed out then many things will be missed.

I'm sure the developers read over these threads, and I'm hoping that instead of getting mad or insulted, they really think about this stuff and be glad that people care enough about their product to want to go out of their way to try and make it even better, like what Ray was doing with the threads he made in the MKDA section. Those were some of my favorite threads on this forum, I learned a lot of stuff while reading them over. Some stuff I would have never even thought of.


I wish they would just talk with us instead of just reading. I would like to see what they think, or what they would like to understand better if they don't really get some of the stuff that's put forth here.

Versatile Wrote: I would like to take time here to post that, part of the reason that I(along with MRS) was so hostile in this topic was because of the news that Rayrokka, a good friend of mine and MANY fans here, was fired. It is quite ironic, that a little heat comes up about an MK game, and Ray, the most enthusiastic about MK's SEVERAL gameplay problems, was let go. Ray knew MK's engine sucked, and he was not afraid to express his feelings about this. Ed Boon most likely read through treads like these and figured in his warped mind that this is somehow Ray's fault. Ray would have been great for the team. Instead he was accused of leaking information and it made his job rather miserable, and in a way, from what I have gathered, he is almost relieved to have been let go. That way he won't have to worry about the feelings of smelling crap and not being able to disinfect it(knowing MKD sucks and not being able to help because of Ed Boon's stubborness). I've never come close to not wanting to get MKD, but being the fan I am, I will reluctantly pick it up in October. MK has done so much for me. It was my source of happiness for a very long time....through my times of depression and loneliness. Even now, being much more socially active and having much more friends, I still play MK and enjoy it for what is, shitty gameplay and all. I always thought in the back of my head "no matter how shitty this looks, atleast I know Ray will more than likely make the team and fix this game up", but no, that will not be happening. So now I find myself..even more worried than before, but if Ed Boon does not care, then I shouldn't either. I will someday accept that MK will be no more than a great novel where you can press buttons to make the characters hit their opponent. I will no longer hope for a real fighting. I will instead..suck it up..enjoy Tekken 5 and also enjoy MK:d for what it is.

Damn that really sucks Versatile, I really thought Ray would be able to change things.

Right...Ray could have done a LOT for MK. I was really hoping he would be on the team.

This is a major let down, it just pisses me off

and to think I was once preferred Ed Boon over John Tobias..I for some reason doubt that John would of done something so idiotic.