I never said it WAS canon. I was describing my own personal idea of what the term "Demon-Sorceror" OUGHT to refer to.

Ya its an ok bio. Not the best so far. Kinda stupid how Kahn is going out of his way to help tsung. "No hard feelings about you betraying and trying to kill me". hmmm

So, the original 1930s Superman is not the one who eventually was able to move planets and hold a black hole in his hand? Because the recent Superman of the 1980s (The one after the crisis)isn't able to do anything like that. That's what I mean by him being two different Supermen.

And yeah, that concept drawing is supposed to be Shang's true form. OR I should say, it had been at one time. I think it must've been when Outworld was supposed to be a very demonic place. In recent years, it seems they have applied Shang's form and his ability to hide it, to the denizens of the Netherrealm. "Quan Chi used to look like us." Those demons looked similar to what Shang's Demonic form was.

At any rate, I think it would've been a good story to have this demon from another realm desguise himself to enter the Earthrealm tournament and then take it over. It's simplistic, but it does make Shang look more sinister, imo.

As far as Scorpion goes, I agree to an extent about the "snakes". I actually liked the living spear from the first movie. The skeletal things in the second movie and the python that erupted from his palm in Conquest looked rather dubious to me.

Demon sorcerer.. Hm.. that ought to be cleared up at some point in MK history..
Perhaps we'll have Shang Tsung in his demon form or something like that in MK8, given that he returns.

About Scoprions spears, they looked cool in MK2! I mean it was more realistic and fitted his name giving him reptilious animals rather than a spear.. o.O

I should probably amend part of my comment on the Annihilation spears. It was, I thought, a cool visual, but the snake bodies looked entirely too big.

I guess I never had a problem with the Spear coming out of his hand in general because, he's supposed to be a supernatural ninja. It's cool that someone made his most trusted weapon into an extension of himself.

Oops, turned this into a Scorpion thread!

But scorpions are arachnids, not even close to snakes...

Ugh...okay, it's like this.

Superman was created in 1938. In his original incarnation, his powers were strength, speed, tough skin, and jumping. His ability to fly was created by the Fleischer Bros. cartoons and added to the comics in 1941. Kryptonite was created by the radio program and added to the comics in 1943.

All of these retcons took place well before the "Silver Age" of the 60's and 70's, the era of the "Pre-Crisis" Superman who could juggle whole planets and destroy alien fleets with a sneeze.

It was during the Silver Age that heat vision, arctic breath, and the yellow sunlight thing were introduced, but when "Earth-1" Superman and "Earth-2" Superman met in the Crisis, BOTH of them had the same powers (albeit E-1 Supes was way stronger) and got them from sunlight.

So even after his time, the original 1930's Superman was still being retconned.

So counting the modern version of Superman, that makes three different versions, and all of them have experienced retcons to their origins and powers.

Sorry for rambling on about something that has nothing to do with Shang's bio, but hopefully that's the end of it.

As a P.S. I absolutely despise the living spear from the movie. Snakes don't have jack shit to do with scorpions, ninjas, or the undead. A kunai on a rope coming out of his hand though, that makes obvious sense. Kunai are a ninja weapon and having it attatched to him makes it a metaphor for the scorpion's stinger.

I'm gonna make an attempt at clearing this "demon sorcerer" thing up once and for all, being that I actually HAVE the old Gamepro issue in question (great issue and interview BTW, from waaaaaay back when Gamepro actually DIDN"T suck camel testes).

It says absolutely nothing about anything significantly story related to Tsung's origins like a few posters here have suggested. Nothing to suggest that Tsung didn't originate from Earthrealm, all it shows is Tobias' concept art of him in his "demon form". Here's a scan of the concept art;

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9719/tsungbn3.jpg

RANT MODE ON

Once again I'm fairly certain this is just another case of overly paranoid and hyper active MKO users digging for "retcons" where there are none, something which gets really annoying really fast. Granted the series has it's share of them (Kano as an Aussie, a few UMK3 endings superceded by their MK Trilogy counterparts etc.), but for whatever reason MKO seems to have a dearth of users who find the series to be chock full of retcons all over the place, when the truth is that compared to many other long running ongoing series', MK has kept retcons to (mostly) a minimum. Nine times out of ten it's usually just people just having faulty memories anyway, but it's also sometimes a case of people analyzing these games WAY too much (and coming from me, that's saying a lot).

Tsung's pre-Shao Kahn backstory has always been murky, but the whole "Demon from Eartherealm" thing has been there (if only referenced in obscure sources) since the Tobias era, and is certainly not a "Vogel retcon". That MK Mythologies link should be proof enough of that. And contrary to what some fans may wish to believe, MK Mythologies' storyline has yet to be (and likely never will be unless they start the series over from scratch) retconned; it's far too crucial to too many character's backstories to simply be tossed aside simply because the game itself wasn't well recieved. For crying out loud we still have Sareena and Shinnok's amulet kicking around in the series lore. Even Kia and Jataaka got a Konquest cameo.

In short; retcons are there, but people have to stop hyper analyzing every throwaway line of every character bio, calling the slightest difference in wording out as a "retcon".That's how the big "Scorpion debate" got started, and that turned out to (naturally) be a big fuss over absolutely nothing.

And for what it's worth, I'm not one of those "ardent fanboys" who'll "defend" the series regardless of what logic spells out; It's just that when it comes to the issue of retcons, they're just not as ever present (or at least not as invasive) as a lot of people here seem to believe, and it seems to me that the word has simply become some sort of inane "rallying cry" for people who have become disillusioned with the direction series has taken over the years. And that's cool and all I guess, but if you're gonna try and poke holes in the series, at least have your facts straight first (and try to be at least as funny about it as Shadaloo is ).

RANT MODE OFF

BTW, if anyone here is interested in checking out the rest of this interview, let me know and I'll scan the whole thing and put it up in the MK Games 1992-2000 board. It's got a lot of cool obscure info, and it's chock full of largely un-circulated Tobias concept art for those who are fans of the man's MK artwork (like myself). . Shao Kahn's original design in particular is pretty sick.

I haven't really read into Shang Tsung, or his involvement with Mythologies (not the details, anyways), but why do they have to be all or nothing? Look at Scorpion's ending; he did kill Sub-Zero, but he didn't become the champion. Half and half, no skin off my back, it works for me.

Frankly, I like Shang Tsung as a demon sorcerer. It adds some ambiguity to his character and essence.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't mind seeing those scans if you ever get a chance.

First of all, I had that issue, as I'd stated in an earlier post. I never suggested that the issue related much about the story. I merely pointed out that the demon represented Shang Tsung's true form, which, in case people can't see the picture, is FAR from being human. He uses his magic to disguise his true form. That would suggest to most people that he is
not/was not human to begin with.

secondly, Retcons were mentioned, because it does tend to make things convoluted at times. Johnny Cage's numerous deaths never happening, but later mentioned as being some sort of lame joke for a movie idea. With Shao Kahn and Baraka being introduced at the time, it was evident that Outworld was a pretty Hellish place. More so than how it is protrayed now, seeing that Bo Rai Cho and Lei Mei are natives of the land and look human. Shang Tsung, in my belief, was just one more creature spawned from that realm and given a human form to sneak into the tourney. I'll explain a little further. Take Drahmin. He WAS human, but died and ended up in the Netherrealm, and became an oni. We know what he is now, is not his true form, because he was human in life. Shang's true form is not the humanoid you see. Or, I should say, wasn't back in '94. The only place that it's mentioned that he's from Earth originally, are a few non-canon places like Conquest, and Shaolin Monks, where Raiden refers to Tsung as a, "traitor".

And as for you not being ardent fanboy, defending every aspect of the series, maybe you're not. But I'm not one to nitpick about everything. This is but one, of a few things in the MK storyline that irk me, and I'm making my feelings about it known.

Drahmin didn't die...

He was banished to the Netherealm, not the same thing.

On subject, it's only been since DA, when they started to add more details to everything, and seemingly started going a different derection, that everyone got upset. I agree with the above post that there really haven't been that many retcons to get upset about. Cage's and Scorpion's stories were the biggest retcons, but all the others (Kano, Raiden, etc.) are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Shang tsung being a "demon-sorceror," that can and has been skewed in so many ways. He could be a true demon taking a human form, or just a human who is a demon in name. I choose, and have always chosen, to see him as a human who's choices have led him down a demonic path. He has an extremely tainted soul. They could have just called him that to emphasis the fact that his power stems from pure evil. In the end we really just have no proof.

If you think about it, the same thing happened with Kahn and his overall story. In MK1 through 3, Kahn was seen as a serious threat with his power rivaling the gods. But ever since his defeat by liu, it seems he's turned into a little bitch. Truth is, since MK3, Kahn has regained his full power, the only thing that has changed is they have fleshed him out as a character ever so slightly and added him a playable character.

Storywise, we know he wasn't always a power house and came from somewhat humble beginnings. But really, we've learned that just like real life, as leader, his true power is in his influence and how people percieved him. After his defeat, Kahn was shamed more than anything and because of that, his "power" waned (the Tarkata left, the shokan defected, etc.).

Be ready for many more "revelations" with the coming bios. I have a feeling that some other more earthrealm shattering info will be released.

You know. just because Johnny's MKDA bio cracks a joke about how he doesn't want to be in a movie where he dies and comes back, doesn't mean his MK3 and 4 stories have REALLY been erased.

Yes, I know Vogel said that was his intent, but so what? If it's not written out concretely in the game "I, Johnny Cage, have never died", then there was no retcon.

I personally choose to interpret the MKDA bio as an example of irony: Johnny just refuses to ADMIT he died, because he has a huge ego and dying isn't heroic.

"Drahmin didn't die, he was banished. Big difference".

Banished, died, the results are the same, he's in the netherrealm and what he is now, is NOT his original form. Wow, and you guys think I'm nitpicking...

But since you like to nitpick, you mentioned Shao Kahn in MK1. There was no Kahn in MK 1. Not even a mention.

And you may certainly believe what you like. I'm not trying to make anybody change their views about anything, whatsoever. If you believe that Shang Tsung was always a human who degenerated into something foul, hey, that's fine. I'm merely pointing out that Tobias had something else in mind for the character at one time, and it had been a nifty idea at that. Also, it's kind of hard to ignore, "shang Tsung's true form", when the caption is next to a depiction of a demon. Granted, it was never actually put into a game, I merely commented on what Tobias (One of the series 2 creators, mind you) had intended...

Yes, many of the retcons started in MKDA...your point being? Also, I could have sworn in MKDA, it was said that Johnny Cage left the set of his latest movie, because he would be killed off numerous times in the story...Your spin on things is that Johnny with his ego would find death in battle less than heroic. I, on the other hand would think that death in combat is an honorable thing. It's all a matter of opinion, isn't it?

I would also like to point out that while so many of you are trying to point out how "wrong" I am and how certain people pick apart the MK Mythos, I actually like this bio a lot. If you bother to go back to my initial post, I think you'll notice that I enjoyed this one. This thing got blown way out of proportion. Anyway, this is a rather moot point, this back and forth thing. I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. I though Jarek's bio was almost completely trash, you may not. I'm not going to tell you that your opinion is wrong.

erased.

Yes, that is a matter of opinion. And Johnny Cage, being the guy who always thinks of himself as the "leading man", wouldn't see the honor in death in battle, all he'd see is himself "going out like a punk" and decide to pretend it never happened.
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, all I'm trying to say is that Johnny's MKDA bio is not an actual retcon. It's open to interpretation, and my interpretation is that Johnny died and refuses to admit it.

I'd take you up on that offer, Throwing-Disabled.

Also, I don't mean to bug you, but you offered in the past to send out a PSM Tobias interview with all the nice Special Forces info and I'd like to see that too. I tried PM'ing twice, but you never answered back.

First off VENOMOUS75, I don't want you to think my "retcon rant" was aimed solely at you, or even really at all. it was more aimed at MKO in general. I really didn't have any specific users in mind.

Also Shang Tsung can easily be both a demon AND from Earth. Demons in Asian mythology (where many MK concepts were taken from, especially by Tobias in the early days) aren't like demons from Christianity or other western concepts; they aren't relegated strictly to some sort of Hell or otherworldly place and can indeed be of human origin (similar to certain types of Yokai from Shinto folklore).

And as for the magazine scans; my deepest apologies to PsychoFight, I wasn't even aware I had any new PMs. Shows how much I'm used to MKO's layout.

I actually have a fairly impressive collection of old gaming magazines, as I used to collect them in my middle school years. Especially anything MK related as that was my big middle school obsession. The only hitch is that I have a REALLY hectic and busy social life; that's why I don't post often on any message board I'm a user on, much less MKO.

However I'm also aware of how many newer MK fans there are around nowadays who have more than likely little knowledge of such old MK trivia, and it's with that in mind that within the next week or so I plan to start a thread in the classic MK 1992-2000 board dedicated to nothing but scans of as many old MK gaming articles as I can dig out.

I still have the Gamepro one out due to scanning the demon Shang Tsung pic, so that one will likely come first, followed by the PSM Special Forces one, as well as a really excellent one featuring lots of behind the scenes photos of the MKII actors having their in game moves digitized, and a few priceless shots of Ed Boon and John Tobias goofing off with them, and lord knows how many more.

It's just gonna take time to dig ‘em out, scan them, host them, then put em up on the boards, not to mention finding the time to do so. Cause trust me, there's a LOT to dig through. Hope to start soon!

Fuck, man, I'm gonna kick myself for saying this but I really appreciate what you're planning to do - so much that I'd feel bad if I didn't warn you ahead of time

and since you would most likely not read a PM (I understand, by the way - no hard feelings, I've had the same experiences, haha), I have to give you the message out here on the board.

*sigh* posting magazine scans on the board isn't allowed here. You could get in trouble.

*yawn*

Not impressed, Vogel.

asmodeus? There are many reasons why kahn was enabled to be defeated and why he was so weakened. If Sheeva didn't leave sindel unguarded, Kitana wouldn't have been able to reach her. and once she did that Sindel turned against kahn. And once sindel betrayed kahn, the spell was broken and the Emperor lost his foothold in the earth which weakened him and allowed liu and all the earth mortals to defeat him. Once Outworld seperated from earth, Edenia and whateva other realms Kahn conquered, the emperor was weak to the point where he had little power and Kitanas Edenian forces were close to closing in. If Kitana hadn't reached sindel to betray Kahn, the Emperor would have crushed all who opposed him (including liu kang) and earth would have been merged with Outworld

What's done is done. Trying to solidfy hypothical retcons is futile because the next game we see will have little to do with this story and everything else.

"woulda, coulda, shoulda...."

"If, If....If"

even though what you're saying has factual value....