This is a great post, something I've said a few times before. But... keep in mind, Tobias probably had more creative control. Unlike Vogel, Tobias is also a character artist and it's likely he did create some of the character designs in the older games. If you look back you can see his named signed to some of the older drawings, I remember MK3's specifically. He was also pretty much equal to Ed Boon, being the co-creator as well, something Vogel doesn't have the luxury of having.

Please do,Xiahou. Seriously,I love reading your huge essays. Moar,I say!

The reason why Kobra turned out surprisingly decent was what I consider to be Vogel's greatest achievement as a writer for a video game.

That would the character bios being written in first person.

It's quite amazing how much even a couple of lines written with the character's own voice,perspective and personality in mind can add to the characterization. I mean,as soon as I saw Ermac's bio and read the line "We are Ermac (We are Legion)",I knew that SHIT JUST GOT REAL.

Good point.
Except I'm pretty damn sure that the chief character designer for the first four MK games was Tobias. I mean,he was an artist first and foremost.

I never really minded Hsu Hao. His design was fine,and so was his backstory. The problem is,he was NEVER meant to be anything more than a one-shot character,an anti-Jax,as you've so effectively described him. Jax kills his ass in his MKDA ending,and that's the end of that story.
Except then Vogel was forced to bring him out again for Armageddon,something he was obviously very unhappy with.

Goddammit,you just had to sprinkle salt on that old wound,didn't you?
Yeah,that was one of the very few things that Vogel did that sent me in a fit of nerdrage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Vogel did good with the tools he was given (RESURRECT EVERYONE LOL). Throughout MKDA,MKD and MKA,he managed to turn Blaze into a legitimate character. Moreover,he took his time to set up a WHAT A TWEEST,which then quite gracefully turned Blaze into the Big Bad to end that chapter of the MK Saga. May I remind you that Blaze started off as a fucking background fragment (!).
Background fragment.
Just ponder that for about a minute.
Also,Taven turned out to be a surprisingly good protagonist with a genuine personality. Who could've seen that coming?
And as for the bios,we know for a fact that he did write them all,he was just never allowed to release them to the public. Blame the Midway marketing department.

There's nothing factually wrong about what you're saying (except that Tobias started Kano's new career in MK3), but there's something very crass about making excuses for a company not taking greater ownership of their brand, and pushing their creative contribution further.

At the risk of turning this into a chicken or the egg debate; it's worth raising the point that they've done very little to foster any kind of desire for development in the fanbase. A better brand and creative team might have focused harder on initiating that type of substainable progress, familiar to more matured serialized entertainment platforms. As opposed to indulging a short term business model pandering to audiences who, you'd like to think, will eventually grow out of it.

Essentially we agree, but it comes off a little bit like making excuses for a company that should be in control of their brand. For all the people convinced Tobias is some kind of messiah, there are still those droves who have, knowingly or not, overcome their stubborn nostalgia to accept new details, no matter how minute.

Tobias made Kano a member of Kahn's army, true...but just a damn foot soldier. Tobias never evolved Kano beyond dumb thug. It was Vogel who portrayed him as an intelligent military strategist, capable of besting the likes of Kitana and Goro in warfare.
And you're right, it's mostly Midway's fault that they listen to us in the first place and do what we want them to do...but if they're going to do that, couldn't they at LEAST listen to the GOOD ideas instead of the bad ones and put characters with interesting but painfully underdeveloped stories like Sareena, Fujin, Reiko, and Smoke in more games?
And I mean Cyber-Smoke, for the love of God. No more backwards steps. No more "I want Reptile to look human again" or Zombie and Spirit Liu merging and bringing Kang back to life. FORWARD development, people. FORWARD development!

Let Tobias come back and help with character designs and be on the writing team with Vogel. It could be a collaborative effort.

Then do not assume anything in written form about anyone, primarily concerning something as subjective as storyline. You was so quick to judge anyone who did not worhsip the supposed quality of MK1-4, but then when someone states the why< of his disagreement you immediately dismiss it.
Fair? Hardly.



That is your declaration of ignorance. It is your own fault choosing to be so unneedy topwards your own damn self. Besides I do not have to get over anything. It would not hurt talking like an intelligent being for once in a while, now would it?



you already did the moment you posted your first comment. Bother to think, what is the purpose of message boards in the first place?



I do not have to give respect to anyone concerning this. And it is not due, it is not like a religion or something of that kind of importance. 90% is a vast exaggeration. Go revel in your insignificance!

That might work, but I would not really risk it. besides, it is not like Tobias is back in Midway again. He is doing the artowkr for MK vs DC, but that does not mean he is going back to the company. Unless I missed some information about this, of course...

*claps*

Great break-down.

===================================

My opinion?

I like Tobias.

Why?

Because he brings an influence and understanding to the games that "programmers" wouldn't normally bring. He brings "the cool", the "what if you could do this" and it actually end up being "awesome".

Artists think outside the grid of programming, I've found, and so, what's so likable about his influence is that, he's gonna "fuss" about some imaginably, seemingly un-programmable "thing" being in the game, and upon them testing the idea in real-time, they will find a better likness to what a "fan mentality" requests.

I've done the exact same thing on numerous occasions. And it's only until the idea is exercised, do people believe a "thing" is possible. Other than that, it's normal for people to lay dormant in normalcy.
================
Now,

Tobias is not the speaker -- although he can.

Tobias is not "the main" writer - although he can.

Tobias is not "the main" artist - although he is heavily, artistically inclined.

Tobias isn't even the "hard core" programmer -- although he can.

Tobias is the "idea guy". heh..
==========

So? Bringing him back to the MkTeam, and letting him have a good chuck of his ideas expressed through MK games, is the best way for us, to get the best possibility out of MK games. What I'd really be "glad" about, is if he's in there, this could be a chance for him to exercise his artistic muscle. His "taste", is our "taste" for MK games. Mainly.

- You hear people all the time talking about "going back" and that whole thing all the time. Well, I've spoken on this numerous times unto def ears, that what THAT means?, is simply that they prefer Tobias's artistic taste in things.

Anybody remember the tale about how Blood even got in MK in the first place? Boon turned left on the idea, Tobias turned right. Lol That "turn" (if you will) was one of the things to become a mainstay, that blew up the franchise.

There's also the popular saying: "I want MK dark again like the old games"... Well guess what? That = Tobias' artistic influence//vision taking effect on the games.

There's also the "Atmosphere" thing, the "Asian Undertone" thing, the "Fantasy Element" thing, the "Martial Arts" thing, and the oh so popular complaint now, that "Maybe they ran out of ideas". All of THAT = Tobias' artistic influences absence.

====

You see, what happened after Tobias left is not that the games went to shit or anything like that. I think it's just that by that time, they didn't feel they needed Tobias' influence on the games anymore (I know Tobias left, they didn't "kick him out" or whatever). Figured maybe they could understand what MK is about without him there. Figured, maybe even complying with the fans could work in his absence.

When seriously, it hasn't worked really for replay and nostalgic purposes. For instance I don't personally know anyone interested in still playing MKDA-A. Even the slightly younger guys still play the older games first. *shrugs* lol. But instead, Tactic took over on the whole = BOON is the programmer. That's all tactical thinking. All the gimmicks. Mini-games "and whatnot". haha...

So, instead of them interpreting stuff like "Darker, Grittier, Fantasy Atmosphere" as words that capture the feel of the atmosphere in the earlier games, and making that "new" again.....They just used alot of the color "black". WRONG. lol

Like in MK2-MKMyth, you can use brighter colors and still get a "dark feel". You can have a "wonderful" scenery and still get "dark and gritty".

But it seems like, they can't interpret that correctly, because they're not artistic idealist like Tobias is.

================

iMo, Tobias' job should be that he draws up concept art, and "yes" or "no" content headed in the wrong direction. Very powerful position.

And from that assertion, I gather he could be the guy that says the wrong shit to the right people alot which turns them off about him sometimes. HA! So, if the ideas aren't looking good (AKA = If the real-time ideas aren't "cool") he doesn't agree with them morally//intuition-wise.

Now that he's older though, idk. He could be a more focused artistic idealist. Which would bode well for us as fans. On the other hand, he could assert himself where he doesn't need to be.

Enter Boon with the tactical advisory, enter Vogel with the writing skills(cuz we like him for that), enter Beran with the art direction skills(cuz we like him for that), enter Mangubat, to focus the character designs(cuz we like him for that)....ect ect ect.

Use people for what they shine at, stop blurring the line so much, and the games will come out better (lol). Tobias is the tone of MK.

But anyway, it seems as though they don't have an artistic idealist there right now for MK. ENTER Tobias.

The main problem is, that if Tobias is allowed back on the MK team officially, it will likely be in a role that has been given to someone else. I personally don't see the need for Tobias, because he is not visionary in my opinion, and I don't see how anyone could think he was. He's had a few good ideas sure... but haven't we all?

That being said, if I could put Tobias in a role, it would be nothing more than a coworker with the current character designers. Kintaro's original look (assuming he did that drawing/concept) was a lot better than what Kintaro actually became.

I gotta disagree about the concept Kintaro being better than the final product. A Shokan of a different ethnicity is both more interesting and a more intimidating sub-boss than a big tiger-man.

Besides, do we really want anything that would invite Furries into the MK community? The blood and gore attracts plenty of unpleasant types already without adding people who like to draw animal-porn on top of it all.

Haha, well we have Reptile.

lol

I liked it more because it was original; something that Kintaro is not and never became. He's just a bigger (except he shrunk or Goro grew) version of Goro with stripes... kind of lame if you ask me. People with fur don't have to be lame, that's just a stupid stereotype. Reptile is of a non-human race, so what would be the problem with a tiger person? Honestly, the concept was just original, something new and fresh. The point I was trying to make was most of the characters spawned while Tobias was heading the department were not very original, and the ones that were had to contend with massive amounts of ones that weren't, and thus were drowned out.

By the way, Kintaro's stripes were never totally explained. Kintaro might have been intimidating for his time, but it was clear that he was lame when MKA brought him back.

I LIKE Kintaro in MKA.

Furthermore...



Prove it. Give me ONE example of an anthropomorphic animal character in a violent video game that's not lame.

The ones in Tekken are the worst fuckin' thing in the game. They're just comedy relief that isn't funny. Is that what you want? From a sub-boss no less?

i can answer that kuma off of tekken

Get the fuck off my internets,kid.

Flashback to 1992, when Boon furiously demanded of Tobias, 'name me one multiple limbed character in a beat 'em up that's good!!!'

According to certain sources, it was fortunate that they were able to independently assess their own creativity.

1962 -- 'People hate spiders!!! You can't have a Spider-Man, stupid!'
Luckily, Stan "The Man" was able to justify his claims with the work of another radical thinker via pulp sensation, The Spider. Thus, America was saved by not having to exercise any deviating thought of their own. *whew*

I see your point,but the last thing we need in the MK fanbase are furfags.

Oh, yeah. That's a real step down from the usual crowd.

You have no fucking idea,and I pray that you never do. Trust me on this,man.

I wouldn't mind Tobias coming back, he's already back to some level since he's doing the comic.....I doubt this will be the last we hear/see of John.

Just to bring it back to the previous point, I did some research, and turned up a startling piece of information! There are deadly creatures in the animal kingdom. It might be a radical theory, but one might just think that might make an animal inspired humanoid suitable for MK!

As opposed to all those joke characters like Baraka, Goro, Kintaro, Moloch, Onaga, and other inhuman pansys!

Holy shit,dude,I think you might actually be onto something! Animal kindgom,why didn't I think of that before?

You know what I was thinking?
REPTILES.

Reptiles are totally deadly. Like,snakes and lizards and shit. And maybe,just maybe... Maybe even dragons,man!

Just think of the possibilities!

Dude... I can only assume it's a few lingering electrical impulses that are letting me type this, because my mind is officially blown!

I think I've got to go away and really reevaluate some basic life principles.
I mean, I thought animal characters could only be jokes! I... I mean, is up even up anymore? Does everything still taste like chicken to dead, American paletes? I'm lost... Unclean! UNCLEAN!!!

Maybe this radical new science could apply to tigers!
I mean, surely the wrath of the tiger doesn't have to be as bad as T'ai Fu!

I actually replayed T'ai Fu a couple of weeks ago,and I think it's a pretty cool guy. Eh does kung fu and doesn't afraid of anything.

Here,fixed your quote for you.