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-sig by MINION

03/10/2011 04:56 AM (UTC)
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Vash_15 Wrote:
These are just some ideas I have floating around, but I feel like they're valid points nonetheless.
They are but the latter two characters you mentioned are far too popular to ever be out of MK for long. So even though their role in the story has changed they'll both probably be main characters and if not you can be sure that a good chunk of their allies plot will be about saving them/bringing them back to life.
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sss133
03/10/2011 05:11 AM (UTC)
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From reading this I have gathered that their plan is to make the mk4 retelling alot more devastating than it was first off. I believe that the original plans for mk4s story was a total war earthrealm is pretty much helpless and shinnok is even worse threat then shao kahn. However the delivery of mk4 let them down eg Shinnok was normal and unliked, mk was getting stale then went off on hiatus then deadly alliance came along and they sorta neglected mk4 apart from a few references. Now with this story set up MK4 can become a much more gloomy story with more relevance to the overall picture
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-Brad-
03/10/2011 06:35 AM (UTC)
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I gave it a little time to sink in...
Pre-rambling warning. Mainly writing thoughts on the fly.
Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
I can't find a way to like Cyborg Sub-Zero if he's just a blue cyborg basically switching with Smoke. It just sounds so... ... ...
In fact unmasked Sub-Zero is my favorite character of all mortal kombats and that version is likely written out of existence.
Contrary to popular opinion, Deadly Alliance's unmasked was my favorite. It captured to a T of who I think Sub-Zero is. A cold, stotic Clint Eastwood type personality that's extremely independent.
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/games/mkda/subzero/
But back to cyborg Sub-Zero, how is Sub-Zero suppose to get out of being a cyborg without making the whole Lin Kuei automation process look weak?
Theoretically, I'd want anyone automated to not be able to return back to nomal. Automation should alter the whole. I'd think an automated individual wouldn't eat, drink or even breath, being that oil and powercells charge their body.
I can't decide if I hate this or killing Kitana off more. EDITED a few sentences afterward.
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GodlyShinnok
03/10/2011 06:50 AM (UTC)
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Ok, just in case anyone forgets it, the story sucks.
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Vasculio
03/10/2011 07:13 AM (UTC)
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Disapoint in some of the ending... But i loved Noob Saibot's if was so epic hehe...

I hope Cyborg Subzero isn't canon in the main story. Just an easter egg for people.. to go" oh wow"
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kombat_king
03/10/2011 08:00 AM (UTC)
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Netherealm should delay the release of this by another six months and pay Tobias WHATEVER IT TAKES to come back and rewrite the entire story. It's that bad.
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KiShiDo
03/10/2011 08:23 AM (UTC)
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Cyber Sub is canon. Live with that! It happesn in STORY MODE and he has even his own chapter.

And I like it. In future games we will have a HUMAn Smoke and still the same Sub with his mind back, just in a different shell.

His human look can be his alt or he will be even more human looking without helmet and all and still be a cyborg.

I like that and give NRS credit for having the balls to do it
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Vasculio
03/10/2011 08:24 AM (UTC)
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I just went back to re read this thread. WTF Cyborg Sub-Zero better not be canon or im dis owning Mortal Kombat. Fire Jon Vogal and bring use a good writer darnit
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Chrome
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03/10/2011 08:28 AM (UTC)
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Vasculio Wrote:
WTF Cyborg Sub-Zero better not be canon or im dis owning Mortal Kombat. t


No loss there.


Or for any of us doing the same.
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KiShiDo
03/10/2011 08:35 AM (UTC)
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Do you know whatÄs funny

1. We have no clue how he will look
2. He will still has ice moves
3. We still have a human for THIS game
4. We don't know how he will look in the future or if he will turn back in some of laater games

and last but not least

5. HE HAS HIS OWN WILL!!! That means it is the same character just with a different look!
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kombat_king
03/10/2011 08:51 AM (UTC)
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Raiden will click his fingers and change sub back for the next game
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Stahlgeist
03/10/2011 08:54 AM (UTC)
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Hey, they warned you guys that things were going to change. As was pointed out earlier by a Mr. BlackCyborg, I believe, some of you were determined to believe that this would be a faithful retelling of the original events, in spite of evidence that it wouldn't be. Disappointment, I can understand, but some of the reactions betray that people didn't expect this coming at all, when NRS specifically said that it was.

Of course, this is the spur of the moment reaction I'm seeing here. Like with comic book fanboys, Mortal Kombat fans have a tendency to hiss and scream as soon as something controversial arrives in the storyline. But once the discussion mellows out, we'll see a huge outpour of excitement and creativity that MK fans are known for, be it for fixing the perceived problems of the story or pondering where it's going to go next.

I just finished reading through the story myself; sorry, Razor, your plot posts - while succinct - were such a tease. tongue And you know what? I really like it.

There are a lot of reasons why I do. They introduced a lot of character-building conflict. I know one of you will immediately tear me down with a, "No, THEY BETRAYED THE CHARACTER ON A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL! YOU CAN'T IMPROVE THAT!", but some of the characters actually got pretty significant development in a way that surprised me.

Spoiler tags from here on out:

Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
For example, Liu Kang. I am so glad for that scene where he denounces Raiden as having lost his mind and turns his back on the Thunder God to focus on the wounded. He's not simply the de facto champion of Mortal Kombat that we never really "met" or interacted much with in the past. Here, we see him go from being the collected Shaolin champion to becoming angry at the losses sustained in battle against Shao Kahn, and turning against the guardian of his realm in disagreement with his methods.
I honestly can't wait to see how Liu Kang develops from here - assuming he's still alive, which I'm kind of unsure about. And I used to find Liu Kang incredibly boring. I can actually relate to his anger about the situation. Who wouldn't be pissed off that the Earthrealm guardian was handing them all over to Shao Kahn, let alone having tried to use their souls as a bargaining chip in negotiations with HELL?


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Smoke. Yes, yes, YES. Finally, some backstory to this guy besides, "He was Sub-Zero's friend, became automated, presumably struggles with his humanity in his endings." I'm surprised they actually revealed his nationality, which is something I've seen revealed for a few characters - it's very cool that we have a character from Europe.
You may complain, "Where's the tragedy of his story, now? He doesn't get automated!" Well, from what they reveal in his bio, he was brutally murdered in his youth, returned, and then found friendship in an increasingly hostile Lin Kuei with Sub-Zero. His best friend, who later is captured and automated by the Lin Kuei.
This isn't a simple switching of roles. We never often saw Sub-Zero really suffering over what they'd done to his friend. Here, when history changes, we see Smoke lament what they'd done to Sub-Zero, remarking that it was "hideous".
From all of this, I think Smoke remains a tragic character in spite of not being automated himself. This is the kind of struggle we now see in Cyrax, who - canonically - DID eventually reject his cyborg nature. We also see it in Sub-Zero, who - like Cyrax did - undergo a procedure to attempt to restore his humanity.

Smoke has new traumas and struggles in his human backstory, I'm not going to cry that someone else is bearing the distraught cyborg burden.


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Sub-Zero. Yes, I was kind of wary of the Cyborg thing, too, but I get the feeling that this isn't going to be a permanent fixture in his future storyline. They've already partially restored some of his humanity, I imagine he's not too far-gone. With Smoke at his side, enthusiastic assistance from Jax and other Earthrealm combatants, and games of development ahead of him as one of MK's leading characters, I'm sure that we'll see him return to human form fairly soon in the future.
I'm very happy to have seen him interact with Smoke, and to see how his quest to honor his brother panned out. The revelation that his brother became a Netherrealm revenant in the service of Quan Chi and how it parallels his own loss of humanity was actually fairly poignant and paves the way for him to be a heroic and wise character down the line.


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Kabal and Stryker. Now THAT was something I wasn't expecting, but thoroughly enjoyed. Stryker's bio presents him as an obvious mixture of the lead characters of Die Hard and Speed, giving him at least some credibility as a "tough cop" archetype from the get-go. But seeing him and Kabal working together in the police force caught me off-guard, and it's great that Kabal has been returned to his roots as a veteran of the Black Dragon that has thoroughly rejected his criminal past. Except now, not only has he rejected it, he's taken up the exact opposite career in his determination to make up for his poor choices.
He even gets a scene with Kano, who - surprisingly - greets him as an old friend and is relatively cordial with Kabal. I know they obviously have some history together, but it's neat how NRS had him attempt to approach Kabal in the guise of an old friend, rather than the typical Mortal Kombat, "We're on opposite sides, and that's all the motivation I need to kill you right here!" Kano demonstrated some savvy in trying to play up character ties.


I could go on for ages about what I do love about this, but I'm going to give in and express some disappointments in the next post.

I just hope that this is the genuine article, and not a fraud, because as divisive as it is to the community, it's going to provoke some more of the best conversation this forum has seen in years. smile
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Manneen
03/10/2011 08:54 AM (UTC)
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At the rate of things being retconned, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cyber Sub-Zero retconned as well.
I don't really see what the big deal is. I think the new story sounds excellent. A grand reboot of a tired, but great, franchise. Something I've read numerous times in this thread kind of annoys me; things like Nightwolf having participated in MK1 being called a lie, just to name an example. Well, if Ed Boon created MK and SANCTIONED the storyline, well, then it really can't be called a lie, can it?

Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it's the xanax.
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QueenAhnka
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Rebel. Outsider. Fan Of The Obscure. Politically Incorrect. Spitfire!

03/10/2011 09:18 AM (UTC)
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Sagittarius198511 Wrote:
I don't really see what the big deal is. I think the new story sounds excellent. A grand reboot of a tired, but great, franchise. Something I've read numerous times in this thread kind of annoys me; things like nightwolf having participated in MK1 being called lies, just to name an example. Well, if Ed Boon created MK and SANCTIONED the storyline, well, then it really can't be called a lie, can it?

Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it's the xanax.


You're right. It's not a lie. This is a reboot. Whatever pretty little euphemisms Boon & Co. have been using for the past few months are irrelevant and were just meant to make "everything taste better". It's as obvious as Jax being black.

*I would've said Jade but...you know...*grin
I guess the point I'm trying to make, albeit a useless point, is that MK is theirs to do with as they please.

I don't know if this is appropriate to bring up here with me being pretty new and all, but is Jade white now? Has this been discussed elsewhere?
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QueenAhnka
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Rebel. Outsider. Fan Of The Obscure. Politically Incorrect. Spitfire!

03/10/2011 09:31 AM (UTC)
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Sagittarius198511 Wrote:
I guess the point I'm trying to make, albeit a useless point, is that MK is theirs to do with as they please.

I don't know if this is appropriate to bring up here with me being pretty new and all, but I Jade white now? Has this been discussed elsewhere?


Oh Lord. Lol.

Jade doesn't have a race. She's not from our world. But people like to see her as many things. There's really no right or wrong answer. I see her as black, my friend sees her as middle eastern, the MK team sees her as both considering the casting call for Jade's voice actress in this game required her to be African-American or Middle Eastern.

Then there's the renders that have her depicted as "light-skinned", yet in game she's dark skinned like she was in MK2-MKA.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Long story short, Jade doesn't have a race. So no, she's not "white". She's dark-skinned like she usually is in the game. The artist just made her light-skinned in all her renders for reasons I do not know.
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Stahlgeist
03/10/2011 09:38 AM (UTC)
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Now, the disappointments are relatively few on my end, but there are some things that certainly deserve a criticism.

Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
The treatment of a lot of the villains and their chronology. As Razor pointed out, Baraka and Ermac being present from the beginning is going a bit far. Ermac, I can somewhat accept, though I would have preferred to see him later on. Baraka should have made his original appearance attacking the Shaolin temple - which seems to have still happened, but off screen.
The worst offender is Quan Chi. I'm a big fan of Quan Chi, and I'm well aware that the canon places his role in the story before even the first tournament. But to have him as a combatant and a known presence to the other characters from the very beginning pushes it. Part of his appeal to me was that he was behind the curtain pulling the strings. Now, we see a lack a subtlety as he blatantly uses Scorpion as an enforcer and seems more cocky than he usually is portrayed as being.
But... Well, he's Quan Chi, and I liked the scene where he blows off the attempt by Raiden to get the allegiance of the Netherrealm against Outworld. Also, his presence and the glimpses of Shinnok clearly indicate that we're going to see Mortal Kombat 4's storyline rewritten and fleshed out in the next game. Given the lost potential of the original game and how Shinnok failed to have much of an impact... I'm looking forward to it very much.

While Mileena's introduction is certainly fudged up from the original, the discovery that she exists actually plays a pivotal role in Kitana's turn against Shao Kahn, and we finally know exactly how Shao Kahn regards the both of them. This was one aspect of Shao Kahn that I was curious about, and while it didn't quite play out like the predictions I'd read and loved, it's a positive point I can draw from a screw-up.

Aside from chronological issues, I'm rather annoyed that Baraka and Reptile didn't get much development and remain functionally the same as they were. The same goes for the Shokan characters, who get a bit more backstory, but are only seen in the story mode as one-dimensional henchmen.


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Kung Lao and Kitana's deaths. I'm not opposed to characters dying, but I feel almost cheated when I read the text and they just get their asses handed to them. It heavily reminds me of the Conquest television series - the deaths were shocking and brutal, but they leave the audience feeling empty. Kung Lao spent much of the story in the background, while Nightwolf seemed to take his place. And, once again, in some deference to Shaolin Monks, he seems motivated by the desire to best Goro in the name of his ancestor, which doesn't really strike me as enough to want to cheer his character on. So he dies, lacking in development.
Kitana, on the other hand, goes through her story arc, and suddenly perishes in battle with her mother. It's the opposite of Kung Lao's situation - he had too little character development for his shocking death to resonate any more than hollow, and she's had too much character development to die already.

Actually, as a side-note regarding Conquest: This story is very similar in some regards to the television series. Raiden's submission to Shao Kahn very strongly recalled memories of that last episode, where he is worn and defeated in body and mind by the destruction Shao Kahn's forces unleashed on Earth. Here, his portrayal is quite similar to the Conquest version, incorporating elements of the distant god-figure of the original MK1 story and the Dark Raiden of Deception and Armageddon. This isn't a complaint by any means, because I enjoy me a flawed Raiden, but it's interesting how the game story is very reminiscent of the television show...


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Some of the character endings are awful and obviously non-canon. Jax and Kano's really bug me, because they're not very relevant to the story at all. A lot of the villains get the typical "Betray Shao Kahn, become all-powerful" endings they had in MKs 2 and 3. Though, not all of them are completely bad, and some are quite intriguing in some ways, such as Sonya's and even Liu Kang's - though I'm very glad THAT one isn't going to happen.
- Nightwolf's was cheesy, and I'm not a fan of Noob's - I detest Havik, and his ambitions are tired and disappointing.
- Johnny Cage's was a complete "What the fuck?" I get the sense they're trying to imbue him with some sort of supernatural powers from his biography in this game, but the Randomly Exploding Johnny being sent to Seido is ridiculous.
- Jade's ending certainly raised a lot of questions that I'm not expecting to be answered, but I have the feeling that this is NRS showing us that the One Being mythos hasn't been forgotten.
- Raiden's ending was underwhelming, given his prominence in the story and his goals. Assembling the Power Rangers of the Winds isn't exactly where I imagined him going...
- Stryker and Sheeva's endings were hilarious, I loved those little touches.
- Is Kabal's ending a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Six Million Dollar Man?


I fail at making complete, biting criticism of the storyline, I admit it. It's hard to ignore the positive aspects I've found amongst the negative bits.

One last, positive note: Scorpion's portrayal in this story is probably one of his better yet. He's not so single-minded and bent on revenge, and we perhaps see glimpses of Hanzo Hasashi beneath the hell-spectre attire.


ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
Sagittarius198511 Wrote:
I guess the point I'm trying to make, albeit a useless point, is that MK is theirs to do with as they please.

I don't know if this is appropriate to bring up here with me being pretty new and all, but I Jade white now? Has this been discussed elsewhere?


Oh Lord. Lol.

Jade doesn't have a race. She's not from our world. But people like to see her as many things. There's really no right or wrong answer. I see her as black, my friend sees her as middle eastern, the MK team sees her as both considering the casting call for Jade's voice actress in this game required her to be African-American or Middle Eastern.

Then there's the renders that have her depicted as "light-skinned", yet in game she's dark skinned.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Long story short, Jade doesn't have a race. So no, she's not "white".


Thanks for the heads up.
Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
I personally hope the game is setting up for the epic invasion that MK4 should have been. I've always felt that MK's netherealm was a VERY pale comparison to what the christian idea of hell really is, I.E. eternal pain, torment, gnashing of teeth...etc. If I could get a little taste of that combined with the stories and interactions of the MK kast, especially Tanya, then I think that alone would merit the changes to the canon. That's just me, though.
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daryui
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03/10/2011 09:44 AM (UTC)
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I'm looking at the text document and see lines several characters say in Shaolin Monks.

Johnny Cage at the tournament = win. lol
Stahlgeist Wrote:
Now, the disappointments are relatively few on my end, but there are some things that certainly deserve a criticism.

Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
The treatment of a lot of the villains and their chronology. As Razor pointed out, Baraka and Ermac being present from the beginning is going a bit far. Ermac, I can somewhat accept, though I would have preferred to see him later on. Baraka should have made his original appearance attacking the Shaolin temple - which seems to have still happened, but off screen.
The worst offender is Quan Chi. I'm a big fan of Quan Chi, and I'm well aware that the canon places his role in the story before even the first tournament. But to have him as a combatant and a known presence to the other characters from the very beginning pushes it. Part of his appeal to me was that he was behind the curtain pulling the strings. Now, we see a lack a subtlety as he blatantly uses Scorpion as an enforcer and seems more cocky than he usually is portrayed as being.
But... Well, he's Quan Chi, and I liked the scene where he blows off the attempt by Raiden to get the allegiance of the Netherrealm against Outworld. Also, his presence and the glimpses of Shinnok clearly indicate that we're going to see Mortal Kombat 4's storyline rewritten and fleshed out in the next game. Given the lost potential of the original game and how Shinnok failed to have much of an impact... I'm looking forward to it very much.

While Mileena's introduction is certainly fudged up from the original, the discovery that she exists actually plays a pivotal role in Kitana's turn against Shao Kahn, and we finally know exactly how Shao Kahn regards the both of them. This was one aspect of Shao Kahn that I was curious about, and while it didn't quite play out like the predictions I'd read and loved, it's a positive point I can draw from a screw-up.

Aside from chronological issues, I'm rather annoyed that Baraka and Reptile didn't get much development and remain functionally the same as they were. The same goes for the Shokan characters, who get a bit more backstory, but are only seen in the story mode as one-dimensional henchmen.


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Kung Lao and Kitana's deaths. I'm not opposed to characters dying, but I feel almost cheated when I read the text and they just get their asses handed to them. It heavily reminds me of the Conquest television series - the deaths were shocking and brutal, but they leave the audience feeling empty. Kung Lao spent much of the story in the background, while Nightwolf seemed to take his place. And, once again, in some deference to Shaolin Monks, he seems motivated by the desire to best Goro in the name of his ancestor, which doesn't really strike me as enough to want to cheer his character on. So he dies, lacking in development.
Kitana, on the other hand, goes through her story arc, and suddenly perishes in battle with her mother. It's the opposite of Kung Lao's situation - he had too little character development for his shocking death to resonate any more than hollow, and she's had too much character development to die already.

Actually, as a side-note regarding Conquest: This story is very similar in some regards to the television series. Raiden's submission to Shao Kahn very strongly recalled memories of that last episode, where he is worn and defeated in body and mind by the destruction Shao Kahn's forces unleashed on Earth. Here, his portrayal is quite similar to the Conquest version, incorporating elements of the distant god-figure of the original MK1 story and the Dark Raiden of Deception and Armageddon. This isn't a complaint by any means, because I enjoy me a flawed Raiden, but it's interesting how the game story is very reminiscent of the television show...


Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Some of the character endings are awful and obviously non-canon. Jax and Kano's really bug me, because they're not very relevant to the story at all. A lot of the villains get the typical "Betray Shao Kahn, become all-powerful" endings they had in MKs 2 and 3. Though, not all of them are completely bad, and some are quite intriguing in some ways, such as Sonya's and even Liu Kang's - though I'm very glad THAT one isn't going to happen.
- Nightwolf's was cheesy, and I'm not a fan of Noob's - I detest Havik, and his ambitions are tired and disappointing.
- Johnny Cage's was a complete "What the fuck?" I get the sense they're trying to imbue him with some sort of supernatural powers from his biography in this game, but the Randomly Exploding Johnny being sent to Seido is ridiculous.
- Jade's ending certainly raised a lot of questions that I'm not expecting to be answered, but I have the feeling that this is NRS showing us that the One Being mythos hasn't been forgotten.
- Raiden's ending was underwhelming, given his prominence in the story and his goals. Assembling the Power Rangers of the Winds isn't exactly where I imagined him going...
- Stryker and Sheeva's endings were hilarious, I loved those little touches.
- Is Kabal's ending a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Six Million Dollar Man?


I fail at making complete, biting criticism of the storyline, I admit it. It's hard to ignore the positive aspects I've found amongst the negative bits.

One last, positive note: Scorpion's portrayal in this story is probably one of his better yet. He's not so single-minded and bent on revenge, and we perhaps see glimpses of Hanzo Hasashi beneath the hell-spectre attire.




I tend to agree with you.
Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
My only semi-irk with the whole thing being Mileena having just been created. But to me that's nothing major. Just not a lot of time to flesh out her story. And I don't get why people are making a big deal out of what they call Sonya's "daddy issues." And I think some posters referred to her as crazy. I think that's bullshit, myself. It takes nothing away from Sonya's character, and if anything, just fleshes her storyline out more. Proves that she's not some raging bitch, that she actually has feelings. Really humanizes her.
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Chrome
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03/10/2011 10:04 AM (UTC)
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Some of the changes cannot be simply explained by Raiden receiving the messages from the future.

Some changes obviously began long before the timeline of MK1. I wonder wether there is some hidden motivator behind everything.... prolly Shinnok.

Most probably it is nothing but deliberately vague changes, which NRS felt were necessary as it did not fit with their original intentions (in this case they could have added hair to Baraka like they indtended...).

MK is theirs to do as they please afterall.


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daryui
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03/10/2011 10:07 AM (UTC)
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EDIT: midread
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Vasculio
03/10/2011 11:26 AM (UTC)
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Chrome Wrote:
Vasculio Wrote:
WTF Cyborg Sub-Zero better not be canon or im dis owning Mortal Kombat. t


No loss there.


Or for any of us doing the same.


When you say US you mean the OTHERS from MKO. I highly doubt you're on the waiting list wink
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FlamingTP
03/10/2011 11:30 AM (UTC)
0
Ok look people, first off this is Ed Boon and Co we are talking about. Did you really expect this to be anything less than a total reboot with Raiden's Delorian Adventure attached as an excuse to call it something else? This is not Heido Kojima we are dealing with here.

That said if they were going this route, especially with the pre-time-travel events. The game should have just been a total reboot sans time-travel.

Now on to the meat-blaze and potatoes:

With all the deaths of the characters people know and love I say great! less need for another 60 character game with a terrible story. That is if Boon and go are going about this with brains (doubtful) and if I am right then relax! all your buddies will be retconned back in in some fashion.

Its not the end of the world people, MK needed something drastic like this. Is it what I would have done? fuck no. Does it still work? sure.

Raiden isn't stupid really. all he got from his old self was "he must win" those three words aren't going to give him shit as to what actually happens in 1-3. He had to find out as things went along and he fucked things up in the process. We would too probably.

People are bitching about this being the same route that the Star Trek film made. In the end that was a fucking epic film and so was the Batman reboot. This may not be perfect but the game will still be a mountain of win.

Hell my complete reboot of the game would have retconned lots of shit. Namely blaze does not exist in the first place, there is only one sub-zero in the first place and, Noob never comes into existence. and when people die they stay dead. Shit now I have to write my reboot fan fiction fuck.
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