oh, and the mascot defense. The mascot defense is stupid because in a multifaceted project, a mascot can be defined by whatever you want. It doesn't hold water. Its defined by the parameters that fluctuate based on whose presenting them. For example;

Is it the most prominent character? Well, technically Raiden is the most prominent character. He's been in the most games, he's played the most central role to the plot. He speaks gibberish everyone knows, and he's got the hat. Everyone loves the hat.

Is it the most popular character? We could waste a lot of time polling users, checking avatars, reading sigs, and blogs. But we would not be able to clearly establish popularity. For any 5 minor scorpion fans, you can find 1 stryker fan who is equally if not more fanatic. How much popularity does a super fan like Queve or MINION count for? Would you really say that the Rain fans out there ain't got shit on subby / scorp? Who are people screaming for more footage of? Scorpion and Sub Zero? Or every other character in the game?

Is it the most advertised character? Most MK paraphenalia has something mispelled with a K, a dragon, and maybe some clouds. That's it. The advent of a character really didn't actually start until MKvDC. Which is the game most people state is the most non-MK anyway. In recent history? Sure, Scorpion is the games advertising golden boy. Johnny Cage is on the side of an MK1 cabinet, and Kung Lao is on MK2. Scorpion wasn't even in MK3, neither was masked Sub Zero. MK4 has Raiden plastered on the side and lightning all over it. MKDA is easily ran by Scorpion, he's in that music video, he's on the cover. But he's not even in Tournament Edition. DE? Well shit, Baraka's teeth or blades are in every advertisement for DE, aren't they? And Armageddon? My copy of Armagedon has Johnny Cage on it. Some have Goro. How bout yours?

How bout them movies? Are Sub and Scorp the main characters? The TV show? The cartoon? The soundtracks? Shao Kahn runs all dem commercials.

You see how futile it is? The only truly immutable character is Scorpion, and thats because he's on the damned logo. You take him off of there he's fair game too.

guys if you think MK10 is even remotely on NRS radar, you're kidding yourself.

wow over 600 posts. A new record?

Anyway, quanchi sounds like a great secret! I wonder how he's going to fit in the story.

Hate to interrupt your marriage quarrel but I would like to point out that Scorpion is, in fact, in Tournament Edition. You might be thinking of Sub-Zero, who is not in that game but was in the GBA version of Deadly Alliance.

Trust me; never, ever in a million years would I ever say anyone's opinion is invalid. That's not the kind of world we live in. You're entitled to like Cyber-Sub as much as you so please, as is anyone else. But I'm not going to say I think it's a good idea. It's true that I don't know how Vogel's mind works, but I did not ever say that "No good can come of him". I just find it extremely unlikely that a plotline that centers on Kuai Liang being a robot can spawn something completely independent from that of the three prior cyber-ninjas, and do as much for building the character as his original one did. I do not outright hate the concept of Cyber-Sub. I have said it before, and I will say it again. I simply believe that it being Kuai Liang is a bad idea, for multiple reasons which I've already outlined.

And yes, it's a confirmed fact Raiden doesn't know everything. I know that. Boon already said something to the effect of "He has these bits of information and he's trying to make sense of them." That still doesn't mean he's going to go about trying to influence every single little detail that he can. He's a god - he's should certainly be wise enough to realize that everything he does may have positive or negative repercussions (Never saw Dead Zone, so I'm afraid I can't comment on your comparison).

But...what is this advertising tangent you've gone off on?

Raiden did not appear in MK: Special Forces, MK3 or UMK3. Sub-Zero was in all iterations of MK3 - and not that it means much, but hey, if we're just going to go by "amount of times X character appears" - twice in UMK3. I'm not even counting Noob. Also had his own game, by the way - at a time when Liu Kang was arguably the main hero of the franchise. Waaaaay before MKDC. That's how much faith Miway had in the character in 1997 - they knew there was money to be made by selling his image, even back then. So there goes any theories about a modern "advent of character", whatever that is.

And incidentally, yeah, Scorpion was in Tournament Edition. It was MKDA's GBA edition that had him missing, and guess what - that was where they stuck Sub-Zero. They knew damn well that the appeal of a game without either one would fall right through the floor.

Even overall popularity among the fanbase is irrelevant. Ask any casual gamer - where a shit ton of money comes from - who they remember most from the MK games. Answer: Not Stryker, and not Rain. Raiden? Definite possibility. Scorpion and Sub-Zero? Absolutely.

Your example of advertising is also irrelevant - people will express interest in MK media, regardless of type, because they expect a good, complete MK experience. And a major part of that experience - any MK experience - is Scorpion and Sub-Zero. It's incomplete without them. Had the two of them not been in the films, people would have been fucking pissed off.

I honestly can't believe you'd call Scorpion irrefutable because of his presence on a logo, while Sub is somehow lessened due to not being there. The two of them are blatantly to MK as Ryu and Ken are to SF - you think of one, you think of the other. Even when Capcom ditched fucking everyone, they had enough sense to keep Ryu and Ken in SFIII.

Every character has an impact, a presence, that contributes to the face of MK. Scorpion and Sub-Zero's are just the largest; any fool on these boards could tell you that, regardless of whether they even like the characters or not..

Scorpion was in both GBA portsof MKDA.

Ah. So he was, and I, too, stand corrected on that front. Doesn't change the fact that amount of appearances in games isn't any real way to gauge a character or cast's popularity or presence in the public mindset, at any rate. Over a decade later, a pretty good amount of people still seem to want a new Killer Instinct game, if that recent Gamefaqs poll is any indication.

This is kind of similar to the Liu Kang thing,the only differences being Liu Kang was found out to be a zombie as a surprise(as far as i know),while cyberzero has been spoiled. At least when Liu kang was discovered players new how he played,and what his effect on the story was. Cyberzero has a month long gap between discovery of concept and discovery of details. I'm a bigger Liu fan than subzero(who i still like) and if i found out early that Liu was going Zombie I would not have thought that it would be a good idea,and would never had turn out well. But it was done well,and i have seen many posters say it was one of the best things to happen to him. Liu's change was permanent,subzero may not even change at all. People may dislike the idea of him changing(as i would have said about Liu's situation) but i do hope they wait before release to completely condemn the character(who knows i could hate him) because it may turn out well.

As for the whole argument that subzero shouldn't lose his previous character development,i'm not fully agreed with that. Subzero had one of the best stories around,no doubt in my mind,but i think it was done well enough the first time.I see a point in exploring the first 3 games again,maybe even the fourth,due to the fact much of the events were left vague,but much of the newer games had more fleshed out stories,and subzero was one of the heaviest recipients of this. Going back to the liu example,the zombie thing was pretty fleshed out,but i honestly wouldn't want to see it again,it's been done and done well. Honestly after the possible events of number 4(which had too much backstory set in canon before mk 1,while still having very little details of the event known,and a lot of possibility for new stuff due to its scale and the results of this game to not happen imo) i think the story should be completely different,the events were pretty clear. I actually would find it lazy to rehash subzero's story over and over because it was good the first time.

As to the unfinished plot points,blame armageddon,every character had unfinished plot points due to that game,i never found out if Liu managed to stop zombie Liu. For all we know subzero could have died during armageddon,people die with lose ends all the time. We may only get a conclusion for raiden,and we may have to accept that. I find it redundant to go through 3 games worth of story again(and possibly be bored the whole way) to wrap up a lose end or two. They rebooted the timeline,it comes with the territory.

In summation,people have all rights to like or dislike an idea,but things will change,and it may be a good idea to see exactly how before they either boo or cheer it because it could turn out well or suck,because we honestly don't know yet. This of course has all been in my opinion. Hope i didnt bore anyone.

While I agree that's it's probably far far far far far from thier MAIN priority right now, and I'm sure they're HEAVILY focused on the finishing touches for MK9...

If you think it isn't even REMOTELY on their radar, you sir are the one kidding yourself.

No video game development franchise that expects to make sequels doesn't AT LEAST have those sequels in the back of their minds while developing the current chapter.

Ideas floating around. Directions to setup. Some of which pan out, others of which never come to pass.

I mean do you think it was just a huge COINCIDANCE that Deadly Alliance made heavy mention of this Dragon King fella we'd never heard of before, and then Onaga showed up as the main villain of the next game?

I'm sure they don't have a firm, concrete, unchangeable plan laid out fro MK10 yet... but I'm betting they've planted more than a few story seeds in this game, at the very least.

I'll be extremely surprised if MK10 doesn't come out within 3 years.

I shall be eagerly awaiting Mk10, but before that.. December 3rd, 2012 :O curiosity curiosity :)

Looooove reading the argumentative discussion in this thread. It's pretty awesome, all of the insight on this character. That's what I love about the MKO community...arguments such as this can exist.

Also, I think it's funny how Reiko is an emoticon

Cyb-Zero? We'll see. Hella fun speculation for this game? Fuckyes. Bring on April!!

You lost all credibility right here.

Well you don't see the difference between for example Human Smoke/Classic Sub and Cyber Sub if he si non canon.

Human Smoke and Classic Sub were included for the nostalgic cuz both of them were appearing in previous games and in Sub's case we ahd no NINJA Sub in that game.

But now think further. Why bringing up a totally new character ala Cyber Sub just to make him non canon and a What if version? it makes no sense.

So either it is really YSZ who will be turning into a Cyborg and we won't have a CANON Ninja Sub in future games or it is someone else like the body of his brother brought back or even Frost.

No way NRS would "kill" of Ninja Sub. But if this NEW character is non canon it would be as bad as "killing" Ninja Sub.

Not so much of a secret when we've known about him ever since December.

Odds its just a alt skin you fight and then unlock after winning.

lol!!!

I can't believe people believe this cyber-ice user is gonna replace the original sub-zero

Its just a fucking secret skin you can unlock, its nothing canon a child could understand that.

I think its ridiculous that they use another ice-user over Rain however.

And a naked Mileena? What a disrespect for female players, I want a naked Shoa Kahn for female fans, and they BETTER no leave Sheeva out aswel along with Rain, over some boring replacer for Cyber-Smoke. Cyber Sub-Zero is even worse than cyber smoke... And to the guy that said Kenshi was on the list of most wanted past-mk3 characters, sorry, Quan Chi and Tanya scored better.

This.

Well other than the naked shoa kahn...

He does have a point about Raident being the most important as far as plot is concerned, since even during MK3 Raiden plays a huge role in the plot by protecting the chosen warriors and narrating the story.

lol, I can't believe this is still going. The objective wasn't a point to point debate over who is or isn't a mascot or even what makes a mascot, I said the mascot defense is subjective and pointless and everyone's replies prove that. The wildly varied passion of this very community proves it.

Put yourself in a mental state of 10 years ago, someone says "They're going to kill Liu Kang in the next game, he won't even be in it." Would you say "Oh wow, that could really be interesting" or "Bullshit, you can't kill a mascot" Or 15 years ago with "Hey, Scorpions not even in this one". Do you remember that? Do you remember the Kano transformation?

People can associate a game like this with whatever character or imagery they choose. There's no "mascot" defense that grants a character immunity to change, there's just people whining posthumously because something they like isn't the same anymore.

You think a yellow ninja with a spear and blue robot ninja with an ice sword on the cover is any less recognizable as MK than a yellow ninja with a spear and a blue human ninja on the cover? even if they're both named Scorpion and Sub Zero? Even if there's a Dragon and the words MK behind them? Really?

I love how people dismiss it and say it isn't canon when in all likely hood it absolutely is canon.

The widely varied passions of this community prove nothing save that the hardcore fanbase, who have much more in-depth understanding of each and every character than the teeming, game playing masses, are always hoping for chances to see characters who aren't Scorpion and Sub-Zero.

Why do you think people around here have been asking for more coverage on characters like Nightwolf, Cyrax, Sektor? Why do people go "shit, not them again" whenever more footage or media relating to Scorpion or Sub-Zero comes up? Because according to the hardcore community, they're overexposed. And they're overexposed because NRS is pushing their images as a major part of the MK franchise, and have been for awhile. First wallpaper to come out for MKDC was Bats vs. Sub, if I'm not mistaken.

10 years ago, before Deadly Alliance, as soon as I saw the first Scorpion teaser, I was happy. They weren't deluding themselves into believing Liu Kang was anywhere near being the main attraction of the game anymore. I wasn't surprised when he died. And when MK3 came out - at a time when they were still trying to push Kang as the main character of the series - I remember everyone saying it was bullshit. And again, lo and behold, a few months later, out pops an issue of EGM with Scorpion and Kitana on the cover. They may as well have been saying "We fucked up there, sorry."

And what the hell does the Kano transformation have to do with anything? It was a false statistic placed in MKII to screw with people because the 'Ermac' stat started a whole bunch of rumors. it's got no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

I pitched the idea of Cyber Sub-Zero to a coworker today. He started laughing, doing a robot dance, and quoting Arnold Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze verbatim. That's just one person, but I'm telling you - you try passing off a robot as Sub-Zero to the gaming masses. When someone tells them that robot is Sub-Zero, they're going to wonder what the fuck NRS were thinking.

Again: In the event that this game simply ends with Kuai Liang as cybernetic, there will either be someone else under that outfit for MK10, or the game will start out with him being reverted. There will always be a human Sub-Zero.

What I can't believe is that I'm actually arguing this with you. You're standing there apparently trying to prove that Scorpion and Sub-Zero aren't the most widely known and recognized characters in the MK franchise, that their image isn't a major selling point for the series. I know that's bullshit, and so do you.

if nrs is smart mk10 will be similar to ssfiv just add 10 characters and some arenas and a new X-ray for everyone.

I for one would be happy

agree but hopefully for dlc (like that is going to happen)