'When you have actual proof, I'll be listening."

Quite hypocritical to say there RazorsEdge701 since you have been bitching about Cyborg Sub-Zero for many pages without proof of the story, concept, and moves...

Apologies Razor, I failed to take into acount your rampant argumentativeness and pessimism and made a generalization. Sue me.

Logic dictates that Young SubZero, being MK's most developed character, will be around for a long, long time.



Happy Razor? Of course you're not.

...

*Downs the rest of the iced tea in my glass*

Fuck Yeah...Here we go....

*patiently waits for razors reply*

You know, if Razor didn't know his shit to the insane level that he does, he'd be a real dick.

Fortunately for him, he's kind of an irreplaceable part of this community.

You boys play nice now.

*Brings in popcorn cart*

Anyone want to buy some popcorn?

ITS FINNA GET REAL

IN THIS HOE

Well, I finally read all 23 pages. I was giddy as a school girl when I read these hidden achievements! I'm very excited there's such a nice number of hidden characters in the game.

Anyone worried about Cyber Sub-Zero replacing Young Sub-Zero in MK10 needs to take a chill pill and take a step back into reality. There will always be a blue ninja in MK.

- Look at UMK3, there were two Sub-Zero's in that game and everyone was happy. Hell, there were two Smokes too now that we're on the subject. We already had a Human Sub-Zero but that wasn't going to keep an alternate Sub-Zero from surfacing due to the love for the blue ninja.

- Human Sub-Zero (and the rest of the original cast) are too iconic not to have representation.

When Ed Boon said another ninja would become automized, I explored the thought of Rain becoming Cyber. Mostly because at the time he wasn't confirmed in the roster yet. Oddly enough I wouldn't have ever put in the time contemplating what Scorpion or Sub-Zero would be like automized because they're so important to the series. It would be like turning Ryu and Ken into robots... Part of Street Fighter's success is it's familiarity. Same goes with the cast of the first 2 or 3 MK games. But with the whole Smoke and Sub attempting to escape automation story I guess I should have seen it potentially being explored.

- Understand that aside from the violence, the other part that weighs on the success of this game are it's characters. I'm sure NRS is aware of this. This game is made to attract everyone that looks at MK1-3 with fond eyes. They wouldn't make a Cybernetic version of a character everyone is familiar with without really analyzing how to do so without destroying what made the original character (and games) successful.

I'm amped to see how Cyber Sub-Zero comes to play. But Ninja Sub-Zero will always be present one way or another.

When I read this info in school today. It kinda turned my stomach a bit. But if its like UMT3/T Human Smoke and and Classic Sub-Zero, I can dig it.

To all you cyber sub-zero haters....I look forward to you in kombat

Do I know every possible avenue? No. What I'm trying to do is explain what I think will occur, based on the three scenarios we've seen with each of our Cyber-ninjas. If you change Sub-Zero into a cyborg, that change becomes the crux of his story. He has to go somewhere from there. He has to deal with his newfound mechanization somehow, if he's even still capable of it. There's nothing bold or ignorant about basing my conclusions off of what we've seen in the past - mindlessness, freedom from it, or a struggle with it all become major considerations for his future. He's not going to just shrug it off. And all I'm saying is that these avenues have been explored before, and making Kuai Liang go down this path is one I find predictable and ultimately useless.

I am not against drastic change, provided it is told well enough. But at the same time, I don't believe something should be fixed if it isn't broken. Have Outworld win MK1 so the invasion happens early, bring Sindel back on the forces of good to help stop Kahn, keep Cage alive, eschew the centaurs completely in favor of the Shokans - I'm down with that, as long as it's interesting. When it comes to most plot elements of MK, I'm willing to hear alternate versions of established tales. I think Reptile's always had the shitty end of the stick, and could really stand to wizen up. I love Ermac's Deception characterization, but I'm very curious to see what he's like under Kahn's control, twisted and all evil. Make Cage the one who takes down Goro, have him as actual official MK champ while Kang goes after Tsung himself. Have Kano knife Sonya in the back this time. Just make it all believable, and give it at as much impact and appeal as the original version had. I'm just throwing out examples here, all of which I could definitely buy as being interesting. But Sub-Zero's original plotline is the character development highlight of the series. It's likely we won't get retellings of Deadly Alliance or Deception, but I do hope to see him still emerge into that leader figure somehow. I'm sorry, but I just don't think swapping stories with any one of the three cyber-ninjas - probably Smoke - can lead to anything matching that for his character.

And again, even if for some reason it turns out Kuai Liang becomes Cyber Sub, fine. I won't like it because I vastly preferred the original telling, but It's not going to stop me from enjoying everything else about the game, or going back and enjoying the original trilogy's plotline when I play the old games.

Then there's the fact that I'm not convinced that the changes that do occur are going to be as drastic as everyone claims. The basic plotline elements for the first three games are still intact - there's a tournament, there's an excursion to Outworld, and there's an invasion. Ed did say that people might die who didn't before, and vice versa, but I'm not expecting too much more than maybe the deaths of a few B or C-listers, and maybe one or two of the main heroes. Any way you slice it, the invasion either succeeds, unlike the original, or it fails, as it did in the original games. I'm not predicting what WILL happen here, I'm just calling it like I see it. And I see it as, like you said - a story which compliments the original. I can only guess by what I've seen, but from where I'm standing, this game still has less of a 'reboot' feel about it as it does a 'retelling' - which people have been debating for months. I could very well be completely wrong; of course I acknowledge that. But like I said - just calling it like I see it.

The difference between Sub-Zero and everybody else you named is that Sub-Zero is one of the two face characters of MK, alongside Scorpion. Regardless of identity beneath the mask, Sub-Zero has appeared in every single MK game barring Special Forces. Sonya and Kano were excluded from MK2 because, statistically, they were the least popular characters. Liu Kang was killed because NRS realized that he was stagnant and only quasi-popular, and that Scorp and Sub were seen as the real interesting characters of the games. Scorpion, though excluded from MK3, returned a few months later in Ultimate when fan demand called to bring him back, and they admitted the game wasn't the same wasn't the same without him...because a yellow robot who can throw a net, though a great concept, is no replacement for a dead yellow ninja who can throw a spear. That's what Cyrax was initially intended to be - a gameplay replacement for Scorpion. It did not work, though he found fans in his own right. They are not going to repeat that mistake. They'll give us Scorpion and Sub-Zero at every chance they get, even when they're not even supposed to be a primary focus (see: them playable in Shaolin Monks)

Liu Kang may have been the hero of the whole Outworld conflict, but it's been Scorpion and Sub-Zero that have captured the public imagination when thinking of MK - like it or not, the ninjas are a major factor in selling the series. That's why they're on the game's current cover and it's not a dragon anymore. To assume that Sub-Zero will become a cyborg and stay that way for future titles is naive. The next MK title will have a human Sub-Zero present - it'll be Kuai Liang, or it'll be somebody else. Maybe even Bi-Han reclaiming the mantle somehow (but that's a whole different can of worms I'd rather not open up right now, for simplicity's sake). I'd just prefer it be Kuai Liang, is all.

By the by, all you really need to do to avoid MKA is kill Blaze. It being avoided isn't really dependent on doing much tinkering with anyone. And they are doing that - just look at Mileena's shiny new personality.

I don't think you understand how writing works.

You see,writing is like a science. Not a perfect science,mind you,but there are in fact rules and standards,and tropes,and all kinds of things that can actually be quantified,rather than just opinion.

Now,purely in terms of quantifiable dramatic possibilities we have:

1) Sub-Zero deciding to face the ghosts of his past instead of being a man on the run,returning to the Lin Kuei,entering a life-or-death battle over control of the clan,emerging victorious,reforming it in his own image and becoming its leader by his own hand.

2) Taking on an apprentice,confiding in her,trying his best to guide her and teach her everything he knows.

3) Feeling disappointment and regret when,despite his good and intentions,his apprentice betrays his trust. She is his biggest failure,and one that he'll never forget.

4) Learning about the origin of his powers and his entire bloodline. Embracing his heritage and taking his powers to a whole new level.

5) Encountering what was once his brother and facing the truth of what he has become.

6) Accepting a demon into the safety of his clan and giving her a chance to overcome her demonic nature.

7) We already knew he was a good guy,but there is one specific act of kindness of his behalf that demonstrates it - Kenshi. If Sub-Zero wasn't there,he would've died.

8) That's not even getting into all of the other character Sub-Zero is connected to. Turning him into a cyborg doesn't just ruin one character - it ruins at least four.



Now,compared to that,Cyber Zero has:





The key difference here is that Scorpion's story was actually fucking moving forward. Nothing was getting retconned. It didn't take 6 games worth of continuity and character development and just shit all over it like you're proposing.

Not to mention that Scorpion becoming an emissary of the Elder Gods was a legitimately fresh and interesting idea.

Sub-Zero becoming a cyborg? That sounds like something a retarded 10-year old would write and upload to fanfiction.net. There is nothing you can possibly make him do that will even approach his original story,because every possibility you can think of was already explored by either Cyrax's,Sektor's or Smoke's story,so all it's gonna be at the end is a shitty rehash.


What the fuck do these things have to do with anything?

Were you trying to give examples of bad writing in MK? Because that's what half of these things are.


I already did. Some of these twists were legitimately good and well-written. Some weren't.

But none of them,not even the stupidest ones,backpedaled all the way back to the very origin of the character and then proceeded to completely and utterly ruin everything he was about.

On the other hand,if you can provide a better argument for csz than "ALL CHANGE IS GOOD EVEN THE MOST FUCKING RETARDED KIND ZOMG!1!!!!",then I'd like to hear it.

@Shad, again, if your attitude is "I can't see this being good so it can't possibly be good" there's no helping you, you don't want to be helped. Either, you're on board with the reboot and you think the canon should be allowed to change, or you're not. But you can't set arbitrary restrictions like "this is allowed, this isn't, this would be boring" from one side of the equation, you don't know how it would play out. You know how you would do it, certainly, but is that how Vogel will do it? There is no way to know.

You say you would like for things to be "explored" but that's not the goal, the goal is change. Raiden's goal wasn't to see what Zaterra looks like during the summer months, Raiden's goal is to keep the same shit from happening. How can he do that if he lets all the same shit happen but spends an extra 6 months of vacation time in Zaterra?

Also, any use of the mascot defense is invalidates your argument.

@T-Rex,
You are weighing the argument of 4 games worth of content vs a concept that doesn't even exist yet. Its a line of logic that can be used to snuff out any modicum of change. Any idea they introduce, the death of a character, the rebirth of a character, the change of a character, you could just as easily say "well, that's dumb because its not as good as all this other stuff that already happened."

This is ironically, identical to Raiden's plight. For example. "Well, if I help Liu Kang win, he'll get murdered and later I'll use him as a toy to murder innocent people, and that sucks" what will happen if I let him lose?

you are forgetting the fact that the entire premise of the game is a retcon. I've never once claimed that Cyber Sub Zero is an inherently good idea, only that it presents the opportunity for good. It could very well suck, anything could suck, this game could be hot salty garbage. The point is, we already know what happens to non-cyber Sub Zero. We know it, we (well, some) love it, but the point of this game is to change it. This is an EASY way to change it.

Edit: also, big fucking lol at referencing writing as a science only to moments later refer to a fictional devices potential as "fuck all".

@Fenix

One of the reasons I'm against altering Sub-Zero's story is because he had a TON of unfinished conflict from his current storyline.

When we last left Sub-Zero...

- He had discovered his brother was Noob Saibot and had told Daegon he would attempt to purify his tainted soul... or end up killing him for good.

- His best friend, Smoke, had been abducted by Noob and forced to assault the Lin Kuei. Sub-Zero had gone after them to stop Noob and save Smoke.

- Sareena had saved his life, but fled from him when she regressed to a demonic form. She then was entranced to Quan Chi's service again, though she still longed to be with Sub-Zero.

- Frost was still actively causing havoc and in her madness was seeking to kill Sub-Zero.

- Hotaru still felt Sub-Zero posed the greatest threat to balance and was seeking to kill him.

- Quan Chi, the man who ruined his life, Scorpion's life, his brother's life, Sareena's life, and many others, was still an active threat.

- Sektor was building a robot army to do battle with the Lin Kuei.

- The Red Dragon viewed the Lin Kuei and Sub-Zero as the greatest threat beyond their rivals, the Black Dragon.

There is still so much potential left and so much unresolved conflict, it upsets me that it could possibly be unresolved. The battle between brothers, the loss and possible redemption of a best friend, the failure to instill discipline into Frost coming back to haunt him, the ghost of his brother's actions with Quan Chi and Sareena ever at his heels, the tainted legacy of the Lin Kuei living on through Sektor, etc.

Why throw ALL of that away? Especially without ever giving any resolution to his internal and external battles? Sub-Zero has had a massive impact on so many characters, turning enemies to allies, losing friends through betrayal, carving a bold new future for himself while the demons of the past forever catch up to him.

Erasing all of that, starting all over, at this point, is like watching Lord of the Rings, seeing the heroes get all the way to the final struggle, only to deny audiences the resolution, instead going back to say "nevermind... here's an alternate story instead."

I want some closure. I want Sub-Zero's grand story to reach a satisfying end before he ushers in a vastly different beginning. That's what I'm worried about now. As a soulless machine, Sub-Zero would have no pathos for others like Sareena, no divergence from the evil of his brother, no grand struggle for authority against Sektor, no failings with Frost, no mercy with Kenshi, no remorse for Smoke... he would cease to be and would instead become a completely hollow character divorced from the character many of us have spent the last decade and a half growing to love and cheer for.

Again, it could all be totally unfounded... but with such a wonderful character that remains so utterly full of potential and great stories to tell when we last left him, it's a legitimate concern for the many fans that have eagerly followed his journey from nameless assassin to renegade deserter to redeemed hero to empowered leader to a veritable ice god and a legend.

Fixing what wasn't broken and messing with what is universally well-received is *ahem*... stepping on thin ice.

See, now you're not even reading my posts.

Yeah, I said it can't see it as being good. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT CANNOT BE. I just said I, personally, this guy here, don't see how it's possible.

I believe that the canon should be allowed to change, certainly, but I am perfectly damn well entitled to prefer to keep some things intact that I enjoyed in the first place. I'm not going to just clap hands over every alteration tossed my way. The notion that I or anyone should is idiotic beyond measure.

Boon's said that the goal of Story mode is to "tell a good, long story". Not "alter everything beyond recognition", not "flip the canon upside down." Change is not the primary goal of story mode - I have no idea where you're pulling that from. Raiden's goal is to change the future, but there is VERY little he really needs to do in order to make that work.

The whole canon does not need to be completely altered and rearranged to be made "interesting", or to prevent Armageddon from occurring. It already was plenty interesting enough in the first place. I'm interested in how Vogel does it, but he's not going to alter every single detail of every single story. If anyone can make Cyber-Sub as Kuai Liang work, he can. Maybe he just might. I'd be curious as hell to see how he does it, but I'm damn well going to prefer he leaves Kuai Liang alone, skilled storyteller or not.

And what arbitrary restrictions are you, sir, placing on me that say I can't use "the mascot argument?" It's perfectly valid - I'd just wager you can't answer it.

You don't know what you're talking about.

sound nice to me

Sub-Zero is a cyborg now. Mad? Sad? DEAL.

@Garl; You're screaming at a brick wall bro, NRS has effectively said all of that stuff before no longer interests us. Hear that guys? Everything that was going on with your characters post MK3 no longer matters. It sucks, but its true. The question I pose to you is, do you really think repelling CSZ will make all that happen again? Do you think they want any of that to happen again?

@Shad; Are your posts getting longer?

"I believe that the canon should be allowed to change, certainly, but I am perfectly damn well entitled to prefer to keep some things intact that I enjoyed in the first place."

Rob you of your opinion I am not trying to do. Keep you from assuming any other opinion is invalid is my goal. Our disagreement boils down to this; You hate Cyber Sub Zero, fine. Hate him for all the end of his days. But do not assume (and more importantly instruct others) that no good can ever come of him. We no NOTHING of Cyber Sub Zero, or his future, yet you have already closed the book. That is ignorant.

"Raiden's goal is to change the future, but there is VERY little he really needs to do in order to make that work. "

You seem to think Raiden knows everything, but Boon already said he has glimpses, only flashes of the future. Imagine The Dead Zone, if you need a real world equivalent. Would little Johnny crashing into the ice on that fateful day know years later he should be in that community hall with a high powered rifle?

Uh, what?!
Did you miss the part where they decided to press the History Eraser Button?
*None* of those things are guaranteed to be carried over in this timeline, whether he is "assimilated" or not.

I really don't understand people acting disappointed by the fact that this isn't *EXACTLY* the same as MK1-3. It was never conveyed as being such.
Those of you expecting MK4-2 and MK:DA2 next are going to be even *more* disappointed.

I agree, if it's good.

Making cameos in other people's back stories, tutoring a gender-swapped you, acquiring lame Dragon Medallions that come out of nowhere, and being part of a race of Ice people aren't signs of good character development.

This is a SEQUEL to Armageddon! Raiden is trying to avoid Armageddon... but if he succeeds, wouldn't it be prudent to assume the next game would pick up after Armageddon with the revamped timeline?... including many of the actions that continue to happen unaltered?

I don't expect them to repeat MK4, or MK:DA-MK:A... I expect them to pick up after Armageddon in the new future... not dwell in the past forever.

Il expect an invasion from Shinnok, but I guess that still depends on what we see in this game. Would be a great way to end the story mode though. Glooming forshadowing of his invasion and that they need to prepare.