Hrmph! You can't please every body. Even gaming gems like Metal Gear, Zelda, Final Fantasy, and Devil May Cry aren't without their critics. But, I don't think you should judge a game before you've ever played it! If you're a skeptic, then RENT it, try it out, THEN buy it. Why does everyone HAVE to pre-order and buy it? Makes no sense to me.

dirtystankbutter Wrote: The main problem here is we are all communicating wrong. There are alot of people that love this game the way it is. And there is alot of people that are upset that more attention did not get paid to the fighting engine. The people that like it should say why they like it and not bash and the people that wanted more from the MK staff and are wanting a deeper fighting engine and not bash. It should be a normal respectful thread with no attacking. People get there pride all caught up in there posts. Then the flames are thrown back and forth. Everyone feel different about this subject its like filling a room up with angery and excited people there is bound to be a fight. I am getting to the point where I don't care anymore. I think I will stick to the normal mondain threads. Laters DSB.

You just summed up everything nicely.

People upset with the Deadly Alliance gameplay and with no hope in Deception come here flaunting their supposed fighting game superiority, berating and insulting other people and as a result of that you get the hyper, MK Deadly Alliance and Deception fans getting riled up and they react in a violent and overly defensive way.

Opinions and points should be made in a mature and civilized way, which I know is hard since both camps seem to have it's share of immature, obscenity spilling, arrogant people. But if you don't like the direction MK took with Deadly Alliance there's no reason to come to this forum to pass judgement or throw insults around, except if you're a person who gets off or takes pleasure in annoying and insulting other people on the internet.

I'm not taking any sides, but those who claim to be superior gamers, wanting depth, better gameplay, should have enough intelligence to know that a lot of people, especially the younger fans are extremely sensitive and will jump out to defend Deception and themselves in a vocally violent manner.

Ok, typed one hell of a post then got "Server is busy" when I hit submit, and it's gone . Let's try this one more time....


Ok, the reason people posting here are sick of hearing others "bitch" is because of reasons like this....

Poster: I still thought MK:DA was fun.

Elitist: You scrub, you know nothing.

The whole reason I got into an arguement with your little buddy BOOgie man was because he offered nothing to the conversation. He came here, told people they needed to die, called them scrubs, and that was it. He may very well know what a good fighting game is, but you would never know it from the way he posts.

I already listed all the fighters I own on PS2, this is not counting all the ones I have for PS1, SNES, Genesis, the games I have on NES, hell I even have a working Atari 2600. So for him, or anybody else to call me a scrub because I still thought MK:DA was a fun game even with the flawed design, is just ignorant. I know what it takes to make a good game for ME.

I have never once said that DA's gameplay was ever better than the newest VF, Tekken, SC, whatever. But you all need to realise that it has other factors that still make it fun to play. Things that those other games don't have. A good story, interesting and diverse characters with good bacjground story's, fatality's, etc. None of those games offer those things.

Anybody who comes here to "bash" MK:DA or D needs to take some posting tips from FLSTYLE. Here's a guy who has been very vocal about not liking the engine used in MK:DA. Yet, everytime he has posted his thoughts on it, they have been well thought out, he never resorts to name calling for someone else posting their thoughts, and he always offers up a suggestion as to how to change it. He doesn't just post that someone is a scrub and claim that he knows more than them. He's the type of person I could easily see myself sitting down and talking to about games for hours.

As I said way back on page 2, what do you guys really expect? When MK:DA was released you could go to any forum and the major complaints were 1) one fatality per character. 2) No stage fatality's. 3) worthless crap in the krypt.

Never, ever, untill about 2 months before this years E3, was there any topic about gameplay discussed. And now it's this big issue. You expect Boon to delay or scrap the game because now you decide things need to be changed? Even if you knew it fromt he start, you weren't vocal about it, atleast not most of you. And even if Boon wanted to delay the game, Midway wouldn't let him and you know that.

What is Boon doing? Exactly what you, the majority, asked. Those 3 major things that everyone wanted changed, have been. Two months before E3 "We need counters and combo breakers", so after E3 we hear our first news about combo breakers. He is doing exactly what the majority of the people want. This game has been in production for two years now? Gameplay was a topic that should of been discussed then, not now 2 months from release. Or even back at E3. This should of been dicussed a loooong time ago if it was such a big problem for you.

I'm not even saying that some things don't need to be changed. They do need to. But I'm also smart enough to realise that gameplay is not everything, to everybody. Just because I still found MK:DA fun, does not make me a scrub. Just because I don't go around acting like a badass and calling others scrubs, does not make me a scrub. Just because I come here to actually discuss MK, does not make me a scrub. Just because I refuse to base my opinion off of 2 sentences from Gamepro, does not make me a scrub.



Now, in an attempt to get this thread somehwat back on topic.... I also posted a theory back on page 2 about the combo breakers. In the video at the offcial MK site, the one with Boon talking over it, he talks about those colored hit indicators that flash very quickly when a person is hit. I went back and watched the video again and it appears that they only flash on the first hit of a combo.

So, what if this is your oppurtunity to break? I don't see those lights serving any other purpose. Boon said in the video, "These lights are informative to tell a person when to strike, or when to dodge" But, they kinda... light up WHEN you get hit, so I'm not sure how that would tell you when to dodge. Perhaps these lights also serve the purpose as to when a break can be performed?

That's what I was waiting to hear!

Actually these gameplay discussions have been going on for quite some time now. It's been at least ten months. I should know since I have every worthwhile thread saved on my harddrive. The problem is not that this complaint is too new. The problem is that those on this side of the fence are too few in numbers so that we aren't heard.

JadeDragonMeli brought up a really good point about the universal combo breaker. In all likelihood, you will only be able to use it to stop a combo on its first hit. That's something you might've figured out had you waited for the game to come out before attacking it.
If not, then by all means your arguments are justified. But for now, you don't know. And uninformed opinions are invalid opinions.

FLSTYLE Wrote: Bit late for that, the "debate" ended back about 2 pages ago, everything had calmed down and by posting this you're risking starting it again, thanks anyway

apologies then, the last time i had read it before today there was 14 posts on it. I got to like 120 before i gave up reading, my mistake.

-smaddy

Bezou Wrote: JadeDragonMeli brought up a really good point about the universal combo breaker. In all likelihood, you will only be able to use it to stop a combo on its first hit. That's something you might've figured out had you waited for the game to come out before attacking it. If not, then by all means your arguments are justified. But for now, you don't know. And uninformed opinions are invalid opinions.

That sounds like an interesting theory but how will the game know the difference between the first hit of a combo and just a regular hit like an uppercut, sweep, punch or kick?

scarecrow Wrote: I hate seeing all this go on, it's just depressing.

I felt the same way 2 years ago before DA was released. All I can say is keep your chin up. I'm totally jazzed about Deception, and STILL play DA. If you have time from your busy career (I'm totally busy with mine too) I'll be glad to play Deception against you anytime.

SoulEdge316 Wrote: how will the game know the difference between the first hit of a combo and just a regular hit like an uppercut, sweep, punch or kick?

The computer knows with the coding that is put to every attack.


Like This attack is a stun attack, knock down attack, Pop up, combo starter...

.....WoW.....

before some tough-guy kid mod tells me they can ban me for coughing because they own the board or whatever. I just have to say one thing.

It's sad that the game is gonna suck harder than it ever has.

BUT, what's worse is when you can't go to a MORTAL KOMBAT forum & discuss your NEGATIVE thoughts on the game or towards others.

A MORTAL KOMBAT forum..... a game that "CHANGED" the game industry for VIOLENCE can't even talk shit. What a sac of pussies. Do whatever I don't even post but here anyway & if I really wanted to talk so bad I'll make sure to get another account.

So to CROWE (and I pray your not Crowe from down south TX) whatever twatlips, give me some skullpoints maybe I can parry it with this groovy light that blinks when you get closer to banning me.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... PWNED! *blank face*

B00gieman Wrote: ..give me some skullpoints maybe I can parry it with this groovy light that blinks when you get closer to banning me...

LOL!! Sorry, but that was pretty beastly. Daigo style.

Hey guys, maybe you's are getting mad over nothing, maybe there will be an option to remove combo breakers as there is one to remove Death Traps.

Oh man....

I am SO close to just giving up...

Are we even going to see menthol again?! lol I think he left.

Anyway, yeah, all of you who have problems with me and what I say can read my posts again. I back my shit up with FACTS. Not BS garbage.

But the game is coming as is the online play. If need be and time permitted I will take some time to even gather some members here to write the "MKD flaw faq". Look for it in the future.

Peace.

im not a big fighting game fan so I dont see the problems with the engine. Can anyone explain it in noob terms for me?

I now seriously don't know what to think. I want to be concerned, but not too concerned so that I look like an "elitist". The other fighting games (VF, Tekken, SC, DOA) have had time to fix up their fighting engine, VF and Tekken especially. MK, on the other hand, had to restart from scratch when they saw that their 2D engine wasn't going to cut it after MK4.

Boon and Co don't have the same privilages as the other fighting game companies had, no baby steps. It might sound harsh, but it's the truth. The guys giving constructive critism of MKD are only trying to help them. Maybe GamePro misinterpret Boon. I don't know.

In the meantime, I am not going to let myself down. I'm psyched to have all those old skool characters in one game, not to mention the game modes. I just hope Midway can prove me and many others wrong.

B00gieman Wrote: .....WoW..... before some tough-guy kid mod tells me they can ban me for coughing because they own the board or whatever. I just have to say one thing. It's sad that the game is gonna suck harder than it ever has. BUT, what's worse is when you can't go to a MORTAL KOMBAT forum & discuss your NEGATIVE thoughts on the game or towards others. A MORTAL KOMBAT forum..... a game that "CHANGED" the game industry for VIOLENCE can't even talk shit. What a sac of pussies. Do whatever I don't even post but here anyway & if I really wanted to talk so bad I'll make sure to get another account. So to CROWE (and I pray your not Crowe from down south TX) whatever twatlips, give me some skullpoints maybe I can parry it with this groovy light that blinks when you get closer to banning me. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... PWNED! *blank face*

I suggest reading my comment again. I specifically stated you will not flame other members of the forums. I really couldn't care less what you think of the game... but you will respect the rules here. Carry on with your immaturity though... I won't be pleasant with the next action I'll be performing.

How can anyone complain yet when we don't even know how its implemented.

First of all I think this is bad wording. I'm 100% sure that Boon and everyone else on the team would be smart enough to make it a little more difficult to break out of a combo than just pushing two buttons. Timing will probably be the key to making it work although.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the topic yet so if I'm restating something I'm sorry.

Does anyone here remember the little bars underneath the life bar that they put in? I'm fairly certain those are still in the game, but I remeber thinking when I saw them that it seemed like a fairly useless thing to do. Knowing when you're being hit or near a death trap is kind of obvious and I remember thinking that the bar would be useless. To me it seems like the logical thing to do would to link those to combo breaking. For example: One scorpion starts a combo on ermac. What you do is you have break points in the combo. If anyone here played dark rift(old fighting game with some neat ideas but it had too many shortcomings) you know what I'm talking about. Rather than being able to break out at any point you have only certian times when you can get out. So rather than scorpion getting two hits before ermac hits F, BLK the person playing ermac has to watch the bar because he can only counter on say the 3rd hit when the bar turns green and if he misses it he has to wait for it to turn green again before he can get out. This way you don't have a game of back and forth (Kinda like Soul Caliber), but if you're good you're not stuck in a 12 hit combo. Also this would force players to use different combos. Sure scorpion could keep using the same combo but the other player would quickly learn when to counter making it useless. This way both players will have to vary their combos and sometimes use short ones or crappy ones to throw there opponent off. Of course I could be completely wrong but thats instantly what I thought of when I read that. I really don't think boon would be dumb enough to make it that easy no matter how bad DA was.

Blimey, we are all getting really worked up here. The game isn't even released and everyone has decided how rubbish it is! I agree that we must discuss the negetive points, and we can all say what we like, but really getting this worked up?
Okay, so maybe it sounds a little disappointing...not totally for me as i did like MK:DA...but how do we know that this wont work better than we initially think? Combo breakers, what if they are too hard to pull off? What if you can turn them off? What if they dont even make it into the final version? Just wait and see, we can then slag it off as much as we like.

Besides, we are getting alot more in this game, and i have never been totally disappointed by Midway before, i cant imagine that this will be the game to break my heart!

Also, the freedom of speach thing seems to have become an excuse for people to become aggressive and negetive to other members...i know alot of you are under 18 yrs old, but lets try to keep some respect in these forums.

deadcrow27 Wrote: im not a big fighting game fan so I dont see the problems with the engine. Can anyone explain it in noob terms for me?

Taking ques from MKDA; there were a lot of small, fundamental design flaws. Many of these flaws are not so radically devistating to a single aspect of the fighting system. However, there are such an abundance of flaws that they affect every other gameplay mechanic in a negative fashion.

An obvious flaw is "universal tracking" and how it completely destroys an already poor sidestep system. I say "poor side step" because it realy wasn't a true side step. The actual side step only accured when you where attacked; then you heard that "ghey WHOOSH." You can not manually SS, as you can in other fighters, unless you SSc. SSc, other wise known as a sidestep cancel. You would side walk, tap block, "canceling" the side walk into more of a manual sidestep.

This would have been usuable had it not been for universal tracking. Even if you side steped, the opponent only needed to hold up as they spammed the branch combos. Holding up durring a combo "tracked" the other player as they side steped, or attempted any kind of lateral movement. So the already poor side step system is even more useless.

Then you've got the absurdity that are the canned combos; aka the branch combos. Not only is this type of combo system completely out dated, but it is out dated because it does not allow for players to express creativity. It is rigid an un-imaginative. The more creativity a player is allowed to express, the more enjoyable the playing experience. So not only is the combo system out dated, un-creative, but the damage they deal is completely outlandish, as well. Huge damage, for little effort.

Juggles in MKDA were in-effiecient. Why take chances with creativity and style, when all you need to do is hunt with a branch combo? Not only that, but many staple juggles for characters are simply weak. So you end up spending more time to develop creative, much more difficult damage opportunities with juggles, yet the damage is not even worth it.

Juggles also had a "hit limit" of sorts. You are limited to the number of hits you can enduce durring a juggle. This is common practice with most fighters, as it reduces the chances of infinates. You are, however, forced into this limit. Again, creativity on the players part is hindered. Damage scalling durring juggles was also nurfed, as stated above, so they weren't even worth the effort.

BDc, other wise know as the "back dash cancel" alows you to immediately back dash after you attack. The BDc actualy back dashes out of a moves recovery frames. Not only can a player attack and recover safely, but create space between the players while doing so. This space allows you to go hunting with canned combos and universal tracking. Borring, un-imaginative, and broke.

Add to the fact that you cannot dash in MKDA - I have yet to see a dash in any MKD vids, btw. Because of the dominance of back dashing in DA, you end up playing "catch the pussy." Even worse, you're not given the tools - a dash - to do so effectively.

Oh, yeah, there are infinates; Frost and Bo. Scorpion is completely broke because he is completely safe with BDc in Pai Gua and hell fire is too good.

Stances are a good idea, but they are/were poorly implemented. Two out of the three stances were almost completely useless for most characters. Every move acted the same, as well. Why?

There was a total lack of attention given to move properties. Move properties being a specific affect that a move has when it hits; multiple types of stuns, knock downs, launches, etc. Move properties are actually what define much of the core mechanics of a fighting engine. They are what define a moves potential and situational use. MKDA totally lacked such.

You had stuns in DA, but again, poor implementation made them useless. You can block any type of move that comes after a stun, unless it's something like a ground pound, sonya's kiss, etc.

Teching, the ability to roll and recover after you've been knocked down, was un-intuitive. You could not determine when "you" wanted to roll. You could not lay there and play posume. The moment you hit the ground you can block any attack, too.

There are many other things which develop the reasoning as to why DA was a horrible "fighting game;" and at the looks of if, MKD. The basic problem with DA/D is the total lack of attention to move properties, practical movement options, and an out dated combo system. That is about as core as you can get, though. There is just so much that was wrong, and so much of it continues to look that way.

What hurts the gameplay so much though, is that all these flaws affect another aspect of the fighting system. This is a common design issue, with anything. It is so magnified with DA/D, however. A fighting game, or game in general, is nothing more than a particular mechanic or design decision built upon another mechanic or design decision. When one machinic has been poorly implemented, it affects all the other mechanics and design choices. When multiple design decisions and mechanics have been poorly executed, you have MKDA, and what looks to be, MKD.

Holy crap straight Juggalo style. Boogieman you just got the smack down on your lips. Your going to learn one thing fast. It does not matter how tuff you think you are, when you attack CROW you disappear. Don't get me wrong Boogieman I like ICP and Twisted more than the average bear, but come on you can't go fighting with everyone here. Make your point and than, let the others make there's. If you get mad go listen to the great Malinko or jackel bros. Then come back and try again. Wicked clown wicked town don't mess with CROW he will beat you down. Ok Im done I did not mean to offend anyone. I am out of here, CROW sorry if I made you mad in anyway. See ya DSB

There is one thing I feel that I must add in this discussion: we might not have to worry about infinates in MKD.

Why? Because Midway took six months to release MKDA in Europe. I'm not 100% sure of the removal of infinates in MKDA (I know for sure the infinate coin glitch is gone), but hopes are high. But that is only one problem fixed out of a fair few.

I love this thread every three or four weeks went it rolls around again.

A bunch of people who "know fighting games" line up and tell the masses how much this game is going to suck, and how scrubby they are for enjoying it.

And then in a month they buy it and play it like everyone else anyways.

True Mortal Komedic Gold.

-F.

Nice job Satyagraha I'll be checking out this thread for that message when i get Deception to see what has been improved

Eji1700 Wrote: How can anyone complain yet when we don't even know how its implemented. First of all I think this is bad wording. I'm 100% sure that Boon and everyone else on the team would be smart enough to make it a little more difficult to break out of a combo than just pushing two buttons. Timing will probably be the key to making it work although. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the topic yet so if I'm restating something I'm sorry. Does anyone here remember the little bars underneath the life bar that they put in? I'm fairly certain those are still in the game, but I remeber thinking when I saw them that it seemed like a fairly useless thing to do. Knowing when you're being hit or near a death trap is kind of obvious and I remember thinking that the bar would be useless. To me it seems like the logical thing to do would to link those to combo breaking. For example: One scorpion starts a combo on ermac. What you do is you have break points in the combo. If anyone here played dark rift(old fighting game with some neat ideas but it had too many shortcomings) you know what I'm talking about. Rather than being able to break out at any point you have only certian times when you can get out. So rather than scorpion getting two hits before ermac hits F, BLK the person playing ermac has to watch the bar because he can only counter on say the 3rd hit when the bar turns green and if he misses it he has to wait for it to turn green again before he can get out. This way you don't have a game of back and forth (Kinda like Soul Caliber), but if you're good you're not stuck in a 12 hit combo. Also this would force players to use different combos. Sure scorpion could keep using the same combo but the other player would quickly learn when to counter making it useless. This way both players will have to vary their combos and sometimes use short ones or crappy ones to throw there opponent off. Of course I could be completely wrong but thats instantly what I thought of when I read that. I really don't think boon would be dumb enough to make it that easy no matter how bad DA was.

I'm 100% with this guy. The very first thing I thought was that Boon's choice of words was off. One frigging sentence, and look at the firestorm it stirs up in here. I'm sure if he went into more detail we'd find that it's not as bad as we all thought. I hope it does use those indicators with the specific break points... that would address a LOT of issues, as Eji explained. You'd have a reason to mix up your combos and everything. This actually has potential to make the game a lot better if it is implemented this way. Great post!