Thank you Gilbob. That was an excellent post that needed to be made.
(This is serious, not sarcasm.)
I think the problem here is that some people (mainly the "MKAWILLROX!!111one~!" crowd) can't differentiate between "MKDA was Broken for high level players. MKD was really, really, REALLY broken for high level players. Until we are given concrete evidence to suggest that the broken elements will be fixed, we must assume that MKA will also be broken." and "MK SUX! It's The Worst Game In Existance!"
The fact that the game is broken does not mean you cannot enjoy it. Hell, I like the damm games, for much the same reason as Gilbob. I like the story and characters, and the engine is servicable (just) for my liking. But when I want to play a great fighting game, I'll put DOA in or go play Tekken 5. That doesn't mean I like MK less, and it sure as hell shouldn't make you like or dislike the game more.
But then, I'm only an adiquete player (I use Nina and Tina Armstrong for goodness' sake), and thus MK's current engine surfices. But I understand and agree that for high level players it's unworkable. I think some people don't understand that concept.
They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Expected MKA's engine to be awesome when it's basically the same one as before with no needed improvments seems to fit that description, but that's being a bit rude.
Of course, there are some things I'm not pushing for. Personally, I hate quater and half turn rotations and do not want them in MK, just because I don't like them (Don't get me started on Hayabusa's god damm triple slam thing). I like MK's simple directional base. But diagonals sound fine, and the rest of the improvements needed I can live with.
But until we get some proof that the game will be fixed, we have to assume that it will be broken, based on Logic. Doesn't mean the game won't be enjoyable. And of course, stranger things have happened. Certainly anyone who saw early video of SimArchitech would probably not have said "Wow, This will be the single biggest selling video game EVER!", and yet, The Sims is.
I think I've rambled enough for now.

Why can't both sides get what they want? More technical fighters like Tekken, SC, and DOA sell to the casual crowd just as much as MK does, if not more so. Plus, they're excellent fighters for competitive players to boot.

MK will always have its own individual style. Does that mean it has to be bad competitively?

There have been countless threads and posts which maturely and accurately make the case for MK's much needed improvement. Take your pick of any post from Bleed, Saty, M2dave, TTT, HDTran, etc., in any given gameplay thread. Hell, even I've been known to make a decent one here and there.
This argument has been going on, both maturely and immaturely, since the MKDA days. The gameplay advocates are constantly using facts and logic to make their case, while the fanboys come flooding into the topic with nothing but nonsense and uninformed opinion. Polite, logical posts from casuals like Gilbob are an extreme rarity. We will continue to drive our points home until either
A) MK is fixed
Or
B) We stop carring about MK and move on.
What would a real MK fan do?

You americans are really stepping it up lately, I go to bed at night and there's two extra pages full of posts when I look the next day.

Hey, Australia isn't the 52nd state.
Yet.

All your Australians are belong to us(UK)

thats their aim, to attract every1 not just the 90%
but at somepoint there are still going to be ppl that dont like MKA.
sry i didnt read through all 15 pages (headache)

I think gilbob and mlsq bring up good points.
However, the biggest thing is that we aren't asking for technicality or huge amounts of depth even, just basics. Some logical basics is what got MK in tournaments and competitions back in the day.
MK just needs those basics again to be able to thrive.

It saddens me that there is still a debate. Like Bleed and Secondgen have already stated "Why can't everyone get what they want?"
I'm a casual player too, but even I groan at MK's gameplay. It doesn't have to be deep, it just has to be functional. Games like SSBs work perfectly, but are simple as hell. MK could still be the simple fighter it is, but at least have the basics nailed!
How hard can it possibly be to impliment a simple wake-up game and move properties among with other equally un-perplexing basics?
I swear at the moment, Mk isn't even a fighting game; it's a blood game.

You're over-estimating my idiocy. (Which I don't blame you for because hey, I refered to myself as an idiot several times in my own post.)
To be honest, what really pushed my hot-button about your post was the words "button mash." I refered to myself as an unskilled idiot yes... but not a button-masher.
Just because I'm a casual player, who doesn't put much thought onto memorizing long strings of combos and strategies, and likes a bit of flair in his games, doesn't mean I'm a completely inept, button-mashing buffoon.
Remember, I said I'm the guy who beats the other 9 guys.
I know basic combos. I know basic special moves. I know a handful of fatalities for the characters I play as. (Not that that matters for the fighting, but still.) This is what makes me the best of the 9, but not as good as #10.
I have never once mashed a button in an MK game. The fact some of us choose to memorize only a small handful of basics, does not make us all button mashers by default.
Now, I'll say this, I DO button mash when I play Tekken and DOA. Sometimes it feels like the only way I get the fighters to do much of anything. Understanding the way those games play is so far beyond my comprehension, that mashing is the only way I stay alive.
Again, I'm not saying that the opinions of the hardcores aren't valid, but... I dunno... seems to me that MK is just basic enough for me to understand the way it plays, and develop enough basic skills to make me king of the 9... wheras DOA, is so complex that it lands well beyond my comprehension, so I'm forced to button mash to survive, which makes me not like it as much, and not replay it nearly as much as I do MK.
So as I said, I love the way MK plays. I can actually play it, and feel like I'm doing something besides button-mashing, without having to memorize laundry lists of moves.
And just as food for thought, I own a copy of every MK game ever produced. Some of them, I own multiple copies of for different consoles. (with the exception of Mythologies and Special Forces, but they have little bearing on this arguement) MANY of them, I bought the day of release. Now, I don't own a single DOA game... I've only ever rented or borrowed them. (But to be fair to DOA, it's largely becuase I don't own an Xbox. I probably would have picked one or two of them up cheap by now if I did.) I only own a handful of Tekken games, which I only bought as Greatest Hits.
When an MK game comes out, I run to the shelf the day of release and buy it. When a Tekken game comes out, I say, "Hey, A new Tekken is out. I'll have to get that once it gets cheap."
Just based on my own experiences and buying patterns, which I admit don't mean everything, I think as much as MK doesn't cater as well to hardcores, Tekken doesn't cater as well to casuals.
Now, a hardcore may do the same thing that I do with Tekken and MK, but in reverse. That may be why Tekken sells well too, because it caters to the half of the market which MK misses, and vice versa. But Boon at this point, seems to realize that his game caters more to the casual crowd. So, if I were Boon, I'd certainly want to make a game that will sell to 9 casuals for $50 and 1 hardcore for $20, because changing his system this deep in the game would alienate his target buyers.
Some of you are saying, "Well if he added to the game, he could please the hardcores and still keep the casuals happy. Then he'd have the whole market covered. Isn't that what he wants?" but I honestly don't think that's true. I don't think that's what he wants. There's a line between casual and hardcore, and I think the more a game leans toward one end, the more it begins to alienate the other. Sales have always, and will always, be based in target demographics. I don't think it's possible to make a fighting game that would sell well to every single person on Earth. To paraphrase Abe Lincoln...
"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time. "
Boon has already found his target audience, and he's rolling with it.
If I woke up tomorrow and MK played like DOA, I'd be beyond pissed, for lack of a more eloquent word. And Boon doesn't want to piss me, or people like me, off, because then he loses our 50 dollars on release day, and he's more worried about losing our $50 then your $20. Sure, he MIGHT get that $50 back from a hardcore, IF he successfully makes the switch to a new target market, BUT from a business standpoint, why put that kind of risk onto what for all intents and purposes, for him, right now, are sure sales? You don't mess with money in the bank.
Deadly Alliance and Deception, though they weren't the most well polished games, still sold successfully. The game play may be broke from a hardcore gamer's perspective, but from a casuals it's not. When people say "If it ain't broke don't fix it." even though we've heard it a hundred times... it holds true.
When we say "If it ain't broke don't fix it," we have to figure out if we're talking about game play, or sales here, because honestly I think a lot of people are confusing the two around here. From a game play perspective MK -might- be broken, and that honestly depends on who you are and how you play. From a -sales- perspective, that is to say, Midway's perspective. MK is doing perfectly fine, and until it's not, they have no reason to majorly change it.
But again, these are just my honest thoughts on the matter. Not trying to step on anyone's toes.

Why do you guys keep asking ed boon and company to add move properties and the like?
Don't you understand that he can't? He's out of his element with that type of stuff. I'm not kidding. How many MK games have had what you are asking for?
Is there any reason to believe that he is capable of doing such things based off what we have seen him do in his career?
You have all seen and read what he says about his fighters. You honestly believe in your heart of hearts that ED BOON has the knoweldge and track record of someone who can do all the things you ask?
C'mon now.
I'm pretty damn sure he's read the gameplay threads here. I'm sure he monitored the online play of his games. That's why he's added the parry and I'm SURE he will add more elements to make the game "interesting".
But as you ALL know, and this is from back before DA, it will be done wrong. I don't even think half-assed is fair to the MK team. You guys have to understand that what we have seen is the BEST that they can do.
One other thing i'm sure of is that BOON doesn't even play other fighters. If he did he'd know wtf a wake up game is.
I'm not saying stop asking for shit, but you all have to come to understand that the MK team is simply not capable of doing what you want: The basics.
All the fighting games we play come from where? JAPAN. They have a proven track record of putting out great fighters.
Again, if you look at MK. How many MK games were/are playable? Only one.
Now if you ask for things that have already BEEN in MK games that we might get some improvements.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example: THIS IS TO THE FUCKERS AT MIDWAY/MK TEAM: I know you clowns like to half ass your shit and you know the pube tick fuckers who are 'mk fans" on this site are going to eat that shit up. That's fine. I understand. But I'm going to help you out. Me. I'm not going to ask you to do anything extraordinary like put in move properties or a wake up game. Cause if you put them in, they will most likely suck ass.
Here's what I want you to do: Take a look back at all your special one button attacks from DA such as the newly implemented "parry syetem" (lol). Now I want you to look over the gameplay thread stickied and pick and choose what would be easiest to put in. For example, remember that "push" attack from DA? That can be your throw escape animation. How you implement it is up to you.
Just take a quick glance and match em up with the failed shit from your other games.
That should at least make some people happy and keep em aroud long enough to buy your next MK game. ------------------------- Gillbob316: i understand you man. And the fact is, I would like MK to be able to cater to both crowds by why should he? WTF does it matter? He's still getting the sales as long as MK fans love MK. I said that back about a year and a bit ago: MK fans of old mean jack shit to him now. Fuck I don't even play my old MKs. Most have moved on to "better" fighters that offer them what they want: A deeper more satisfying experience. Mk is great for casuals. It's jam pack full of stuff. Stuff like chess and puzzles that most love but the 'hardcores" find useless. Often, more technically sound that the actual fighting engine. I could follow the others here and say: Why can't he cater to both, but when has he ever catered to both? NEVER. When has he ever come out and said "for the more hardcore or gamepaly oriented we put in a few new elements that you should find interesting." NEVER. He simply doesn't need to. He's got his audience and their money.

This brings back good memories of playing Tekken Tag with mates. My mates would button bash as frantically as possible before a match starts, while I would calmly push the command for a reversal. I would reverse them nearly every time and they would never know what hit them. Thanks for bringing that memory back, it has me laughing here!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the game being broke from a high level player's perspective, but I've always considered myself a casual player and I think the game is as broke as anything. It's just personal really; you can't generalise.
If you lean too far one way or another, you alienate one of the parties. That's true to an extent, but like I said in my above post, MK could still appeal to casuals, but impliment basics, so that the gameplay can grow instead of devolving past intermediate level. Having wake-ups, Counter-hits and a good Frame System wouldn't alienate casuals at all. In fact, most of Tekken's market contains casual players among with the competitive ones.
Virtua Fighter is an example of a game that alienates casual players, it has gone too far one way to capture this audience. MK doesn't have to be like that though; it just has to work on both levels, like most good fighters do.

I have to agree to full extent with colguile on everything he has said really and nobrainer's too (Above 1).
Plus, To posts a few pages back, We cannot complain about poor nitty-witty bits in the game. Or in any future game for that matter. The only way we can diss games is when we have played that actual game, full. 100% completion and experted it. That way, people will know your opinions and think more like you, especialy if your an expert at the game.
Ever heared of the phrase:
"Dont Judge A Book By It's Cover?"
Play it, Then at the end of October or through November when, hopefully most or some of us like me have become experts of the game, and know every detail through and through. Not listening to whiners who hardly know a single thing about the game !!! (There I said it).
"It’s a lot more of a cat and mouse game... you know; Rock, Paper, Scissors." - nobrainers Sig.
I think he means that, Once you done winning 1 match (Or part of a fight in MKA), you suddenly get Pwn3d by your oppenent. It's that easy to change the fate of the match.

I consider Mk's gameplay being "Rock, Paper, Scissors" to be a bad thing, RiotNC. The 50/50s are the equivalent of "Rock, Paper, Scissors". You plant an opponent, walk up and force them to guess between two different attack heights. This is because there is no Wake-up game. The low attacks have the same frames and basic properties as the high attacks, so there is no mind-game of thinking "He'll use this attack, because it's properties are suited to this situation", instead you choose to block low or block high and hope for the best.
MKD is mostly a guessing game, because of the 50/50s. The online players can tell you this far better than I. It's not all a guessing game, but when you are planted you are prone to the dominating 50/50 tactics.
Boon tells us in the gametrailer video that: "It's alot more of a cat and mouse game... you know; Rock, Paper, Scissors."
Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's fumbling words in an attempt to describe the "strategy" of his game, or he thinks a random guessing game for a fighter is a good thing. Any of these and more can apply and in combination.
I think he just doesn't know what he's talking about. More proof that he doesn't visit these Forums. If he did, he'd see that players have being using the exact phrase "Rock, Paper, Scissors" as a complaint about the 50/50s for the last 2 games! He truly has lost the plot.
That's what I mean by using that quote. I was not using it positively. So, do you agree with me or disgree now?

It's funny how people who praise or condemn MK:A throw the word "ignorant" back and forth, when there's so little info available that it applies to all and none. Fucked up until proven decent, or decent until proven fucked up.
I'm indifferent until E3.

Couple things,
1.

Hit the nail on the head. Best description of MK I've ever heard.
2. If eddygordo was serious on the previous page, sorry to see ya go, dude.

I know I am like SUPER late in this response since I'm responding to the first post in this thread, and if this has already been brought up, then I'm sorry for bringing it up again. I just didn't feel like reading 15 pages. lol.
This is in response to the issue brought up about testing characters. It was said that "they couldn't even test 24 characters" and "what makes you think they'll test 60?"
My answer would be this, and I may be wrong, but hear me out. If the costumes, moves, and fighting styles are kept from MK:DA and MK:D, then Midway will technically only have to test 11 characters (13 if Noob and Smoke are separated). Only 11 characters from past MKs haven't entered the Xbox versions. Those will require more testing than the rest, and if everything is kept the same from MK:DA and MK:D, then the rest of the characters really don't need to be thoroughly tested.

I was talking about casual players in a general term.
some mash and some don't
You are one of the ones that don't, and that's fine.
Now, when you talk about having to button mash in games like DOA, and Tekken, why is that?
If anything, these games should be easier to get in to, by the way they are designed.
How is pressing
1,2,3 with Jin
P,P,P,P with Jan Lee
and
2,2,3 with scorpion so different?
It's just simple button combinations.
It should actually be easier to figure out combos in Tekken or DOA because they have a logical command set up.
In DOA, if you see a combo that's Punch, punch, Low kick.
the command for it is going to be something like P,P,d+K
In Tekken, if you see a combo that's Left punch, Right punch, Left kick.
The command for it is going to be something like LP, RP, LK
You don't need to learn every combo in those games either, or every move in MK if you don't feel like it.
Another thing, is....
If MK had the basic elements such as:
Throw escape
Logical move properties
Ground game
strings instead of dial combos
How would that make casual players hate the game?

all i have to say is mk has the best fantasy and best fighting mechanics
common
street fighter
like 3 to 5 characters share the same moves
tekken
a panda? common you can get more kreative tha that and that one log guy
this game is work in progress. it's not like theyre gonna leave the gameplay as it is.they have months to change.

Can you explain how MK's fighting mechanics are better?
Tekken has it's style, it's part serious and part humorous.
The animals and the dummy are a silly addition, which is kind of the point. But they are awesome fighters if you learn to use them. And they ARE creative, how many animals or dummy's do you see in other 3D fighting games?
Like the saying goes, don't judge a book by it's cover.
That happens all the time at the arcade when I choose Kuma. ( the bear )
I beat the snot out of people with him, and they can't handle it cause he's a bear.
Go figure....

Something tells me you just blurted that out without thinking beforehand, unless that really is as far as your knowledge of fighting games goes.

What do you guy's expect MK8's new game play to be like?
I have a feeling it's going to be more and more like MKSM.
Ed really seems to like how that fight engine turned out.
Maybe something similar to MK4, where it's still 1 on 1 traditional style combat, but you could do all kinds of custom combos, but with realistic martial arts instead for MK8.
It’d be a little better imo if it was closer to that idea, instead of what we have now.
I'm not expecting anything even close to the competition as far as quality goes.
But as far as how it looks, that's the vibe I'm getting.
They like designing for casual gamers, and customisation is what a lot of people want.
Semi custom combos I think are the next step...

I have no clue how it's going to turn out, but I am with an MKSM style all the way. Like I say, tighten it up just a bit....and i do mean JUST a bit, i don't want the movement and what not to be static, as it is now. Tweak the physics JUST a bit, too.
Also, in concerns of wake-up. I personally think that we don't need wake up attacks, "specifically." As in wake up kicks and shit like in VF, T, etc. I personally think that if a proper tech system was developed we could just use the existing move set. Just give the player options to play dead, tech, roll forward/back, instant stand, etc.
Add a few invulnerable frames durring tech and then just let the player execute whatever move they wish for their wake-up option upon recover, instantly. Similar to 2d wakes with DP's, random wake-up supers, etc. It keeps the game moving, yet is based completely on creativity and existing mechanics, not a pre-built system. Everything is self contained with in the basic mechanics, there's no need for transparent layers of gameplay - which would only help the MK team, lol.
Then just develop a basic oki system to punish sleepers and you'd have a bitchin' wake up system. Simple, self contained and deep.

Yeah, I think the wake up game could be made something a lot more open than what's in most other games. Something more than the basic sweep, or back hook kick almost every character has.
It sounds like you are talking about a wake up system like the one in the Soul Calibur games.
Where instead of doing a basic 1 of 2-3 wake up moves, you can do any of the while rising attacks. ( rising from a crouch, type moves)
That'd be fine IMO.
I’d want some lie down specific moves though on top of that.
Like what Brad Wong (DOA4), Lei Wulong (T5), Shun Di (VF4) have.
MK could also make use of their powers.

Yeah, you can do wr moves from tech in T and VF, too, but I'm thinking more long the lines of instant access to the characters entire move list. Don't even worry about a crouching status on tech recovery, or at least don't worry about it in terms of move execution. Meeh...

There should also be the option to tec. roll, or stand up in to a crouching position.
So you don't get forced in to taking a throw.
Not sure if MK already has this...