Although most in here will disagree with you I have no doubt, you raise excellent points man.I agree.

^ You still don't get it do you, MKF? THERE IS NO INTERNET CONNECTION IN EXISTENCE FAST ENOUGH TO RUN T5 ONLINE WITHOUT MAKING IT A TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME. So are we now to judge what is a good fighting game based on wether or not it is online? Is that supposed to be your point?

MKF: It's the 5th installment without online. It's pathetic, blah blah blah.
Uhm..it's the third MK installment with the same crappy engine. That's even more pathetic, blah blah blah. Plus what secondgen said.

Do all fighters have to go online by their 5th installment? It took MK 10 games to get online. Isn't that pathetic as well by your standards?

Yeah, and then there's arrogant dumbasses like yourself and Tru King who think they know everything in the world, yeah the world will never change.You're not so perfect yourself, and it's retarded to be able to hit someone on the ground, that's my view despite if you disagree.Again, this isn't Tekken, stop trying to convert MK to Tekken.If it did that, then it wouldn't be MK now would it?
I might be arrogant,but at least I know what I'm talking about.Saying shit like "Tekken plays like VF" makes you just look stupid because why would you say something like that if you don't play either games competitively?
I'm not trying to convert MK to Tekken.I want MK to have the basics like the other fighters.Having a wake up game is a basic.You do realize that the lack of a wake up game in MK:D only makes infinite combos possible that even you complain about?
Why are you even defending MK:D in this thread?You don't play BRC players in MK:D.I wonder why.Then you want to talk about contradiction.
Also, to Ryu I have played Tekken and VF and other then the info Bleed listed there's nothing drastically different imo.Yes, they are different but come on.We all know Tekken took LOTS of shit from VF.Admit it already.It's funny though, whenever I ask any diehard VF fans, they tell me that Tekken used a lot of the elements that were in VF, yet Tekken fans deny this, well the close minded ones anyway.There's this one guy I work with, a VF nut to the T.I should just ask him out of curiousity to see what he thinks.
NO SHIT!Whichever Tekken fan denies this is as stupid as you,if not moreso.As a Tekken fan,why wouldn't I want Tekken to add gameplay features from a better technical fighter if it is only going to make the game better?
Your problem lies within your huge "fanboy blindess".You don't play other fighters competitively to the point where you can make valid arguments.It would be like me talking about organic biology,when I,in fact,don't know anything about it.That's how you sound when you try to make any points regarding Tekken or VF.
Also,if Tekken or VF sucked as much gameplay wise as MK:D,players would trash the game to death on their respective sites.Would that make them non-Tekken or non-VF fans?Of course not.

Well, I'll try and put it with a simple yes or no, cause people keep arguing / debating over this.
Forget about the other games for a sec.
Fact = MK's fighting mechanics have a ton of problems that need to be taken care of.
There are certain ways to fix these problems
[ examples ]
fix throws by adding an escape.
fix 50/50's by adding a ground game
fix move usefulness by adding a logical Risk VS Reward system
fix inescapable dial combos by making them blockable strings
fix the breaker by adding a good reversal and parry system
ect.
Question:
Should MK games have these problems fixed by adding basic game play elements, to make the game play better?
Agree, or don't agree?

And the very first post wasn't doing the exact thing?

I think the funniest part is that one would wave how another game has basics like a similar game as if that is something bad, when their own game that they play don't even have these basics. Their basics that they are is this... basic. Nothing else is the same, the games don't even play the same nor have the same focus.
I mean, doesn't anyone see anything wrong here?
"MKA! IT RULES! THE ONLY 3D FIGHTER TO STILL NOT HAVE A WAKEUP GAME! STILL NOT HAVE A COUNTERHIT GAME! STILL DOESNT HAVE A USEFUL STANCE SYSTEM! STILL DOESNT HAVE FRAME ADVANTAGE! THE ONLY 3D FIGHTER TO STILL HAVE INFINITES! THE ONLY 3D FIGHTER TO STILL HAVE NO REAL REVERSALS OR PARRIES! etc. etc. HELL YEA, WE DON'T HAVE BASICS, I MEAN TEKKEN HAS BASICS LIKE VF, SOUL CAL AND DOA TOO! MAN THEY PLAY EXACTLY ALIKE!"
I mean seriously, is this something to be proud of?
Bleed: Agree of course.

yes konquest. which is supposed to play simular to shaolin monks...meaning youll be running all over the place fighting.

Right, I'm putting it real basic like that, cause everybody should agree.
Should MK play better? Of course, yet we get these long threads bickering back and forth about a moot point.
MK's game play need's to be fixed by adding working basic elements, period.
Why is this still a debate with some people ??????

Absynthe: I want to pose something to Absynthe though. At least 50% of the MK boards is made up of people demanding something and none of those things get fulfilled by their direct demands, should we therefore tell all the people that demand for certain fatalities, returning characters, etc. to STFU as well as they have no direct influence of the direction of the game? Cause for some people, seeing the same questions, the same character demands, etc. gets hella depressing and annoying as well. People that generally don't want to hear gameplay gripes, but want to hear gripes about fluff actually know that the gameplay gripes are real and MK has a big-ass problem. Likewise, people that want to hear about gameplay improvements, but don't want to hear about constant fluff (ie. asking about Rain's return for the 500th time) know that because of fans that don't care about gameplay, Boon can sell anything with a dragon logo on it and they will take it with a smile.
I think Absynthe and Shinnox brings up a good point.
A lot of us came into MK during the arcade phase when it was still competitively playable.
Now that it's degraded to 50/50s and loss of depth, spacing, and zoning and just overall strats... us older MK fans feel alienated as MK has become nothing more than a vehicle for Midway to push gimmicks onto the players.
But it ultimately comes down to this, MK is no longer a competitive game that you can have real tournaments for, it doesn't have the depth. MK isn't a competitive game that you can have discussion for, all guides and end-all be-alls can be written in one post.
The only thing we really have left from MK of old is the characters, stories, atmosphere and memories that are still being progressed that we grew up with.
None of the new MK fans care about gameplay really... hell, even the best MK players that have played every MK won't touch MKD because its such a horrible game. Even though Bill (MKLegend) tried to create a scene for MK4 in the past and MKShaolin Monks.
MK is just not a tournament worthy fighter anymore. Hell, it's not even a worthy fighter for strat-talking or can be taken as a competitive game anymore as it lacks any form of real depth. At best, it's a party game.

Bleed,Boon is a lazy fuck.I don't see him fixing anything until the next MK for the next generation consoles.However,the easiest and simplest way to fix some of the things in MK:D is...
wake up game - quick recovery should be possible on ALL moves,so you can recover quicker before your opponent can approach you and utilize his or her 50/50 mix ups;this way, 50/50 mix ups will be less effective (unless in corners maybe) while combos and juggles will be enforced
breaking a throw - if a throw is breakable on reaction,a throw will be useless in high level play because MK:A will very likely only have one throw per character;the only and simplest way to fix this is to still make a throw breakable;however,you still take some damage from the throw,but you won't be launched or put into a 50/50 mix up position;the player breaking the throw GETS the advantage while the player who threw is put at a disadvantage after the throw is being broken on him or her
lows as fast as mids - we know Boon won't fix this problem for his life,so hopefully,the parry will take care of that.Even if the throw is un-parriable (which I assume won't be the case in MK:A),it still doesn't matter because the throw would be breakable (according to my suggestion above)
**parry** - people say this will be like MK:DA's reversal.Now,I didn't play MK:DA enough to make judgements,so can anyone explain to me how a MK:DA reversal actually worked?I need specifics (What are the attacks it parried?What do you have guaranteed after parrying?What happens when you mis-parry?Are you at a disadvantage like in Tekken and VF? etc.)
universal tracking - keep it since not all moves in MK can track unless you press u+(insert command);throws should track as well
I believe this is the simplest way to make MK at least a decent fighter and avoid as many easy infinite combos and 50/50 mix ups as possible.

Little things like that are fine, as long as they are there.
It would show some kind of effort to make the game play better.
As new games come out, keep adding and refining.
Some real basic stuff I'd add would be.
1 = Guard stuns
2 = Make attack recovery more like in MKDA = get rid of the MKD delays
3 = Throw escape = Have at least 2 throws with 2 different throw escapes.
4 = Add a basic ground game
5 = Give dial combos block points, and add height variation attacks to them.
------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know all the details, but the MKDA reversal would just stop an attack.
I think H, M or L with the one reversal command.
Then you could counter with anything
It basically just froze the opponent for a sec., so you could hit them.
If you whiff the reversal, you could get hit by a fireball if they threw it at the same time, or before.
Someone else with more knowledge of that could explain it better.

Okay... here's my two cents...
Let me 1st start by saying...
I... am a fighting game idiot.
I admit this.
I know nothing of the intricacies and nuances of fighting game mechanics. Before visiting these forums, I had never heard of things like, Wake-up Game or Infinites or Tiers for that matter.
I do not profess to have any type of "Game" and the only people I ever beat in the arcade are other people like me.
However, I take no shame in this, because at these arcades, I still beat 9 out of 10 people. I don't beat that one guy who knows all this stuff. Who knows the 75% combos. Who knows that one exploit in the game mechanic, whatever game it may be, that will win him any/every round, and frankly, I don't care. I take pride in the fact that I still beat 9 average people, and didn't have to bend over backwards and pick the game apart to death to do it. Now a lot of the people who post on these forums are that 10th guy. I have nothing against you, and appreciate the skills you've developed... but I, and 9 other people, just don't have the get up and go for that.
Now, all that said, I have no problems with the way MK currently plays, because I am not the type of person who would ever take the time to learn an infinite, or how to execute it successfully, and nor are the type of people I play against, thus, they have no effect on us. The longest combo I ever committed to memory was Nitara's Square, Square, Square, X, X one in Deadly Alliance. Before that, the longest one was Noob's 4-hit one button combo in MKT. Now, I'm not saying that I have better things to do with my time then the people who do memorize these things, merely that I chose not too, because I don't need the headaches.
What I do have committed to memory, is the story. I'm probably the only person I know who could recite the entire history of Mortal Kombat flawlessly if he had to. (And I know, there are plenty of people here that could do that, but I'm talking about the real world. For all intents and purposes, my buddies know jack about the story.)
Now, on that note, I'll say this. I loved MKDA. LOVED it. I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It had the characters I loved, expanded on the story I loved, and for all intents and purposes, played just fine for what I needed it too. If I can beat the game, and see the endings to those stories I love, then I'm perfectly peachy. I mean what is the purpose of a game at the end of the day anyway? To beat it. Correct?
The object of the game is to kill Onaga. Infinites have never once gotten in the way of my doing this.
Now all THAT said, I can't stand the way DOA plays. Tekken, I only like a little bit more. I never even played Soul Calibur or Virtua Fighter, because I found their stories beyond boring. (Just my personal opinion.)
My friend loves DOA. It's his fighting game of choice, so I do play it on occasion, at which time he kicks the crap out of me. I remember my 1st reaction was, "HOW THE HELL DO I JUMP DAMMIT!!!" to which he replied, "I don't think you can really..." then he did tell me you could do those little hops forward and backward. I must say... it drove me absolutely nuts not being able to flip my way across the screen.
Another thing that bugged me about DOA, was that it was all over the damn place. When I punch someone in MK, he either gets punched, or blocks. To be, this seems like a simple and obvious reaction to having been punched. When I punch someone in DOA, he grabs my arm, spins around 7 times, and suddenly I'm halfway across the screen, facing the opposite direction, with my skirt over my head and my panties showing. (And people give Mileena crap for being skanky ) And it's like that for 20 damn minutes... it's all grapple, spin, reverse, spin, grapple, slam, spin. It bores me. I can beat it just fine, but it bores me. God forbid anyone throw a spear or freeze someone.
Now I will say, that it impressed the hell out of me visually. The water actually looked like water. The drunken boxing fighter (I forget his name) moved about 100 times more impressively then Bo Rai Cho ever has. Beautiful, beautiful game, but I like the way MK plays 100 times better, because for me, being an idiot, it suits my needs much more appropriately.
I don't know if I had a point for this post... I think I just wanted to spout of my honest thoughts... and that's pretty much what I did.
Now, DOA, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter. They're all different games. They cater to different types of players.
As an average player, If I had to be stranded forever with only one of these titles, I'd take MK in a heartbeat, and I know I'm not the only one. And as long as we average joes buy it, it will sell.
Now, to the rest of you, I'm not saying, "Shut up and go play Tekken!" I think everyone has the right to play any game they choose, and they also have the right to expect that game to be good, but ya'know what... despite your opinions, some of us regular joes already think MK is good. I'm not saying it's fair, or that it's a good thing, or that you should have to play Tekken to get a game that plays the way you want it too... BUT... that seems to be the reality of the situation. And clearly Boon cares more about pleasing us then he does you. I know it's cliche, and I know it's been said, but the best advice I can offer is... deal with it or don't buy it?
Mortal Kombat plays like Mortal Kombat. Tekken plays like Tekken. Dead or Alive plays like Dead or Alive. You're perfectly in the right to prefer the way one plays to the other, but they will never play like the same game, so don't expect them too.
If you can kill Onaga and beat up your friends, then what's to complain about?

Today i realized how hard MK games sucks and how i wasted my time on this garbage game called MK.
I think this is my last post on this site.

Different fans look for different things.
a casual fan like you I guess looks for fireballs and I'm not sure what else.
Cool looking stuff basically, and a quick fix.
I know, that's what I used to look for before I learned all this game play stuff.
some more serious gamers look for the quality of the game, not just how cool the fights look.
So you get a problem of alienation for the serious gamers, cause MK caters to casuals instead.
An easy way to fix that would be to make the game play quality better.
Casual players can still do what they do, learn 1 or 2 combos and the fireballs, button mash or whatever, and the serious gamers can go and dive in to the little details, cause that's what they love.
MK's game play can still have it's style.
There can still be some dial combos, just designed to work better.
You can still have the high jumps
fireballs
Hand and weapon combat
Just have it work well for high level gamers to enjoy also.
I don't see the problem with this.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out because I DON"T WANT ASS PRINTS ON MY NEW DOOR!!!

Actually,this is a very good post supporting the casual gamer's perspective.
However,the only thing I'll say is that some people will ALWAYS go beyond the "regular" play.Competitive and high level play will reveal much about the quality of the game.Every developer can depend on the game's constant gimmicks once a fanbase has been established,but not every developer can create a balanced and glitch-free gameplay.
Besides,I don't think Boon can add a feature,such as online play,where a huge amount of people will play the game competitively,and thus,exploit the game,and expect not to get it criticised.
Therefore,since Boon treats this like a fighting game,it should have the basics as any other fighting game.It can satisfy both types of gamers at the end because it is ultimately up to you how you want to play it.

Why can't the majority of the other casuals' posts be like Gilbob's? It was rational, well thought, composed, and coherent. Gilbob, are you sure you're on the right board?

Because Gilbob is probably older than 13 lol

Wow! You said it for me! lol

This is more or less what I think too, but my poor english don't let me explain correctly my point of view on this board... So thank you, Gilbob^^

gilbobs post is correct, if you were making a game would you make it for the liking of the 90% of ppl who play it regulary or the 10% who compare it with other well respected fighting games.
each game has devoloped its own style of fighting.. mk is mk etc etc
if you dont like it, maby you shouldn't waste your time cursing it and go make a your point well said in a valid post like gilbobs!
the only way your point is going to be taken seriously is through real posts where you have examined all the facts and came to a conclusion in which somebody else can argue.

Same here!

MK's 10% would grow dramatically if the game play was great.
The 10% you speak of is the result of MK's alienation of high level players as a result of sub par game play mechanics.
For MK to make even more money, it's game play needs to attract more than casual gamers.
Does that make sense?