In Liu Kang's owns words - "Whooaaaah!!!!"

It's not the case. He replied to my comment which had nothing to do with the post he made. If it did have something to do with my post, then it'd be fine but then he goes and starts calling me a moron for no reason and that's when I get a bit pissed.

Sorry if the thread gets closed but I don't just let people insult me.

As much as it pains me to say it...

...wait for it...

...I like both of these a whole helluva lot. There's something very gritty and unpolished about how the shapes and the lighting look, I can't put my finger on it. I think that's partially due to the high-res pictures being "unnaturally" enlarged, but after shrinking them down a bit in photoshop they look great.

I do share the concerns about the stages not being dynamic enough, but as has been said it looks like there's plenty of opportunities for the "falling kombat" thing that the MK team seems to be pushing. And not to rake the coals yet again, but the fact that these stages are so dark and brooding makes it all the more frustrating that Sub-Zero and Scorpion's designs are a tad goofy. Then again, my opinion could change on the character designs once we get some actual in-game screenshots of the characters in action.

Either way, I'm starting to get excited about this game. Well done, MK team.

Looks nice. At least the covering will be something good designwise.

I am still uncertain about how old or misapplied the graphics engine will look in the game. And of course there is the gameplay issue.

The batcave looks wonderful. The arenas are looking fantastic. I can't say the same for the character renders :(

I gotta say, I'm really impressed, they look nice.

It's still weird to think we are going to see the likes of Sub-Zero and Scorpion in the bat cave

Assuming that kind of lighting remains intact for the actual level, one flashes back to complaints about the overlit Batman render. In this kind of environment you'd have to think (or hope) the model's going to come up a lot better.

As much as I could grumble about the current iteration of costumes; I'd like to think Sub-Zero and Scorpion will benefit from vivid environments. It's the kind of conceit that's helped the superhero design sense mature and develop, although, it's hard not to feel cynical every time someone uses "dark" in a sentence.
Turning the lights out seems a little vague.

It'll be very interesting to see how the concepts translate to finished product, but most interestingly, how the characters fit into them.


You'd think Alfred would've learnt after Vicki Vale...

You know, I think I actually LIKE these stages. *Gasp!* I know, I can't believe I said it either.

I'm not too fond of the glowing Batcave part (flashback to Batman & Robin), but the rest is wonderful. Gritty, detailed, with a nice twist to what we expected. Looking good.

You can tell these were done by the MK Team. I dig, I dig.

Hm... perhaps the characters are being intentionally designed with bright, high-contrast colors to balance them against mostly-dark backgrounds . That would be interesting.



Good point, and I agree that simply making the characters "darker" in visual style with every new iteration of MK wouldn't necessarily be a good (or creative) design progression. However, I do feel that the... uh... "over-ceremonious" kind of design direction for the ninjas is distracting and not really what I would've wanted. I think it's a reaction to the whole MKvDC thing and (I'd venture to say) almost certainly not how they were going to look when this was simply the next MK game. But, we've got a ways to go before the game's out- let's see what happens in the interim.
By the way, Mick: Nice sig

Hah! Well, I don't know if we agree exactly on the details, but you'd have to think more practical designs would benefit as much as, if not moreso, from the verisimilitude of dimlit contemporary designs.

You raise a good point about the character designs, too.
I guess I've been one of those fans being a bit bullheaded about what to expect from the game. Ideally I'd like something more grounded and personalized (like MKDA's designs), but I guess if we go back to the "iconic" buzzword, it stands to reason they'd regress to something more familiar... Sort of... I still don't like it. Bastards.


Just trying to save some time/grief.

But what did you want out of this. You knew it was a crossover of things we've seen 100 times over so what did you expect to get out of it? That's the question. They could do it three ways. Not say anything until the game comes out, say everything there is to say tomorrow, or trickle stuff down over time. They've obviously chosen the last option as 90% of companies do. It's the same deal when you see a first render of Jin from Tekken 6 or Cloud from a new Kingdom Hearts. None of these are supposed to surprise. Just to say "hey, this is one thing you'll see." Sure, we knew Batman would have some personal stages. Sure we know what those stages would probably look like. But that's what the game's point is. Old shit meeting old shit for shits and giggles. You're barking up the wrong tree if you didn't think we'd be seeing pictures of Superman and the Batcave. I don't see where the problem is outside of you're bored of seeing things you knew you were going to see. Stop waiting for something new. It's not coming. In fact, that's probably the #1 reason why people don't like MK vs. DC.



No. Because the in-game functions are destined to be garbage anyway. Besides, it's pretty obvious they're waiting for E3 to show anything more than random teaser images. I don't really hold that against them. They need something to show there.

Growth? There is no growth here. Just like there's no growth in Kingdom Hearts or X-Men vs. Street Fighter (unless you consider tag teaming 'growth' and not a nice gimmick), or Namco X Capcom, etc. There's nothing to show. Think back to MK:D when they first showed the pretty colors of the stoplight telling you when to block. Is that something you want to see? Frankly, I say keep that hidden.

And, how will Hawkman change anything? We know just as well what Hawkman looks like as we do Superman. Would you like to see a Hawkman render that's drawn in a poorer style than many other pieces of artwork of him we've seen in the past? Would that not also be boring?

And what unexpected story beats could we get? You know what it's going to be. The MK guys and DC guys at first think the other is the enemy and fight it out. There's a big threat. The two sides realize the error and team up to solve a problem on a universal scale. They're obviously just jacking bits and pieces from every comic book crossover that's ever existed. Again, no surprises. Stop waiting for one because it's not coming.





The difference between you and me is that I've already resigned myself to the fact that everything we see is old old old so I can judge it from a purely artistic angle and these drawings are not bad at all. You seem to keep holding on to some fantasy that you'll be surprised by something and then get disappointed at every turn because there are no surprises to be had. No offense to be taken or given. Just the facts. You've peeked at your Christmas presents and now you're bored on Christmas morning. I always knew I wouldn't be getting any presents from the start so I can just enjoy the day.

Let's say we see concept art of Goro's Lair (which I'm actually expecting) and it's a really nice design. Sure, we've seen it before but that doesn't mean it's any less of a nice design. Maybe it's boring but like you said before, this is about the two worlds meeting on established grounds. Hence why there aren't going to be new MK characters and probably why there won't be any DC characters who aren't well known. Frankly, I'd love to learn Black Adam is in it. Sadly, I probably will never know that joy. I can accept that though because Black Adam isn't as much of a "face" in the non-comic reading mainstream.

EDIT: I've read some later responses so ignore a lot of the stuff above. I guess the whole "iconic" thing is what I was expecting so it's why I'm not as disenchanted as you are. I too prefer the costuming in MK:DA. But, yeah, it's not as "iconic" I guess. That's why what we're seeing is more "boring" so to speak.

Here are my thoughts :

Click me to see

Warning -> ! If you like these renders don't click !

I like them both, not overly impressed, but I think they're good considering the characters involved. The Batcave would turn out nicely if some version of the Batmobile was parked somewhere on the level, and perhaps Robin and Alfred in the background watching the battle.

The Gotham level as a whole is excellent, as well, but as an arena, it leaves me a little flat I would hope that its rather simplistic design would leave room to include a multi-tier level that ends with both Kombatants on the streets of Gotham, perhaps Commissioner Gordon and a few of the Gotham PD looking on.

Sure, we've seen Gotham and the Batcave before, and they have all been different interpretations, some good (Tim Burton's Gotham) and some bad (Joel what'shisface's giant-statues-holding-buildings Gotham) We've seen the Batcave from the 60's show, we've seen the cartoons, we've seen the movie versions. again, different interpretations of the same thing.

Heck, we've seen different interpretations of the Batman himself..From Adam West to Michael Keaton, to Clooney to Christian Bale. I love West's Batman for what it was, Michael Keaton is my favorite movie Batman and I like Bale's interpretation of the Dark Knight..I could take or leave Kilmer's Batman, and would have taken 60-odd year old Adam West again as Batman over Clooney...

No reason to complain, really, we're dealing with an established universe, one should expect to see some of the more familiar surrounds of said universe. Should we not expect to see the Batcave? Metropolis? Amazon Island?

If one is to complain, it should be that we have seen absolutely nothing in the way of concepts of these two realms MERGING. Where's the Lin Kuei Temple fused with the Fortress of Solitude? WonderWoman's Island with Shang Tsung's? Outworld/Netherrealm with Apokalyps? When do we start seeing these merged levels?

Repetition is as invalidating to "art" as incompetence.
The difference, perhaps, is that you aren't critiquing the process of promotion and the method of presentation, as much as you are objecting to everything I'm saying, even when you're agreeing...

I scoff the implication that observing a clock, swivel chair, or colour palette is any better assessment of the piece than criticizing the context of it's presentation. While I share your regard for the final game with little hope or expectation; I think it's a bizzare and misguided contrast to object to my 'verbalized' ambivalence, before justifying acceptance with an assuming distain for what we haven't seen.

Ultimately the Batcave is the Batcave, and we all should know pretty much what to expect from that. That doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
What you might be misreading is my criticism of that as borderline irrelevant fluff in lieu of materials that, with better planning, could've fostered a more interested environment.
Lord knows recent history makes it hard to give the benefit of the doubt, but there's no reason MK can't establish some assemblance of forward movement with this game. Given what I'm being attacked for, it's just downright crass to cut down what we haven't seen.

That, and clearly you underestimate the powers of Hawkman... Everything's better with Nth metal. Even a sense of humor.


EDIT: I guess I'm indulging each incremental release also, before totally jumping all over how little MK has risen to the DC standard.
As much as the concept doesn't lend itself to being an integral part of the MK saga, I'm a firm believer in making the best of the license afforded to the MK half of the game, rather than completely wasting time.
That isn't exactly connected to responding to a child tugging my apron strings to show me what they drawded, but maybe there's a snowballing sense of perspective.

I might be losing track by trying to respond on everyone else's terms, too. I enjoy the discourse and don't mind having my thoughts challenged, but it'd be nice if there were a thread sub-boss, or something...

So, Mick, aside from the merged levels that Boon mentioned, what exactly would you want from the levels? Be specific, would you?

... Ugh. Wouldn't someone else's perspective be more interesting at this point? It's bothering me that this is turning into the Versus Mick-Lucifer thread, because it's supposed to be the usual roundtable of responses, not just my thoughts. Why is it so quiet lately?...

Ultimately I'm coming from a very easy angle of being critical.
I'm not objecting to the Batcave per se, as much as the disinterest inspired by concept art of things we've seen ad nauseum and already thoroughly expect. It's been a lot easier to fully expect the Batcave and Gotham City than Goro's Lair...

As for what I would like in the finished product?
For something like that I couldn't say without knowing more about the story. I really think that's where most concepts should come from. I personally struggle to imagine something like Goro's Lair or other levels more specifically identified with a certain time and place, but then, that's been one of the clashes of thought, I suppose.

Off the heels of Armageddon, and maybe even Deception, I was really hoping we'd see the opportunity for experimentation and post-Armageddon development, rather than another nostalgia compilation.

After Deadly Alliance put such a strong foot forward, it's been very disappointing to see that progress lost. Maybe ironically, I'm looking at the potential irrelevance of MKvsDC as an opportunity to reinstate some of that momentum.

You have a point.

For me it's moment to moment. I see pretty Batcave and say it. That alone has no bearing on my take on the entire project nor what I expect the overall quality of the experience to be. Just that it's a pretty picture of the Batcave. If I were taking these steps as more of a path to an end result I might be as indifferent about it as you are. I'd love to be surprised with some great mechanic or even basic throw escapes but I think that ship has more or less sailed. If all I have is knowing they're at least drawing stuff right that's at least something to smile about.

Ironically enough, me saying "nice artwork" and you saying "meh" is a result of me actually being more bitter about MK than you are. Look what I've been reduced to.

I can dig. I hope there are some tiers to them at least.


Sigh.


I am ready for MK related pics though, as much as I love Batman and have accepted him into the game.

Well, yeah, I agree another person's view would be welcome at this point, however, I'm addressing you because you' are/were so vocal in regards to these two stages. Ordinarily, I wouldn't bother to respond to another poster's opinion of a matter, after all, we're all entitled to our own opinions, but I'm not quite understanding your problem with these two stages in particular, I guess.

Sure, we've seen the cave and Gotham in one form or the other, but not in an MK game, and really, shouldn't we expect to see Gotham and/or the cave? Personally, I'd be more surprise/disappointed if they'd used something as obscure as Oh, say, Gorilla City with a bunch of Apes in the background, or worse yet, Dick Grayson's apartment (if he's still living in one). I don't know, in a game like this, I think you have to expect some of the more familiar places to show up. If you're looking for inspiration and innovation, you're going to have to see what they can come up with for the MK universe.

Frankly I'm disappointed that out of the four stages we've seen, none of them look as though they are part of a merging of two realms. Perhaps as the game progresses, the merged levels will appear, but for now, I'm less diappointed with how the levels are rendered than I am with the fact that none of the levels shown thus far embody the fusion of multiple worlds/realms.

I'll say this much, out of all the stages, the only one I'm somewhat disappointed with was Metropolis...Yeah, it's in ruins, but then again, when isn't Metropolis lying in ruin? How many times does Clark have to weld the blasted Daily planet globe back to the tope of the building?

To answer, I'm coming from a purely artistic standpoint. Putting my very confident bias of this game aside (as hard as that is to believe), I just look at it like: "Is everything proportioned reasonably, and conducive of a battle arena? Yea." - "Is everything colored to an acceptable degree for what the area would warrant? Yea." - "Is it at least on par graphically with it's competition in the same marketplace? For these ones, yea. Looks good."

Whether or not they take more liberties hurts the critique. Especially if there's a notion that it's supposed to be "new" in any way, but I imagine that would undermine the license agreements, and would jeopardize them trying to make things "iconic". Which in turn, would undermine the "grand scheme of things" for this iteration in the series.

As much as I don't want, or believe DC elements should be there, I have to leave that out in order to get my rendition of a "fair" critique on the art itself. Graphically, and color choices would mean it's a good, sensible concept arena for the Bat Cave. It is an acceptable arena for a fighting stage as well.

All of that, and it's still all really old in the ideal execution method of the drawing. "The fighting space", the ideal "breakable barrier onto another portion of the multi-tier"...ect, it's all old and easy to imagine. So, after my critique happens, I still agree to an extreme degree...."Meh".

Y'know? To be critical of the thing, doesn't mean I have to be one side or the other like/dislike. The way I look at it, that just makes the negatives in the critique more apparent.

lol

To: VENOMOUS75

I do think that your idea would have made for a more interesting take on "crossover". Would've gave them the opportunity to establish some kind of appeal outside of mere "novelty", and made for a more interesting critique too. But again..I don't know how they could take the liberties there without violating some term or some agreement.

Idiot

LOL well he did warn you

That's true.. I did warn you.. hehe