I gathered that there would be a storyline explaining the reason why Superman can be hurt by people... It will probably be something along the lines of Shang Tsung (who by the way in almost every description I have ever read of him is described as a sorcerer I.E. He has power over magic, whether he has a history bathed in Divinity or not) has cast a spell over Superman to bring him down to everyone else's level etc.

Anyone who is a Superman fan knows his weakness to magic is well documented, so it's not like they have just tacked this on there. I mean there are only so many times you can use the Kryptonite story after all these years, they needed to give him another weakness.

Seriously, all the millions of plot holes in Mortal Kombat's history, and this one, which actually kind of makes sense, is the one everyone is picking on! Let it go!! It's a non-canon game any way so it's not going to effect the MK storyline.

I don't really see what all the hub bub is...
It's just a game, we should be happy there even is a next gen mortal kombat and be done with it. DC is cool and MK is cool, that should be enough.

And IMO Raiden isn't all that grand.
He has sucked lately in the games.

Just my point of view so please no jumping me.

Predator, I give up lol. You really aren't listening and you are so set to prove something that I think most people already accept as given. You want to believe them equal, and you will craft together any story to make that seem plausible. I must say though, your WW vs Kitana explanation actually did make me laugh out loud. Now WW is merely a 'hunter' and Ermac now has 'unlimited power.' You took some serious liberty there to try and make those match ups seem plausible. You do realize that both Diana and Hal can hang with Superman don't you? (That is for a different thread of course.)

It is not an exposure issue. We've had how many years of MK games? The kind of things that Supes and WW do in the comics are not the type of things that happen in MK. Jut accept it. Sonya can't move Pluto! She can't! She can't! lol She's just a mortal! I don't need her "presented with the situation" to know that she can't do it. There is nothing fictional about that. Also, the DC characters I continue to bring up are not mere mortals. Superman, WW, and Shazam do not fall into that category. Batman and Catwoman do.

As far as your claim to them being mortal only during the tournament also does not fly. We saw Liu Kang fighting Shang Tsung in the opening of MKDA (which is canon) and he held his own until the ambush at the end. We know that a mortal like Kang can hang with a sorcerer like Shang Tsung, which is why I tend to believe that even the non Earth realm characters are in the same boat.

I've already addressed your Raiden arguments. They are nothing but speculation on your part. Feats that you think he is capable of, but of which there isn't the slightest indication that he is capable. Somehow you go from his mastery over lightning to equating that he is faster than Flash and stronger than Superman. It is entirely baseless. Shao Kahn merging the realms is an example of obvious high level sorcery or whatever mystical powers needed to do such a thing. It does not prove that he could survive a punch from Shazam.

I don't agree that the lack of information is a factor. I just acknowledge that the MK team has not given us stats on strength, speed, etc and that there may not be a comparable system to the comics. Scorpion doesn't move planets. He doesn't. He just doesn't! lol What you would like me to believe is that such a feat could be possible but we simply don't know because the MK writers have never told us. I cut you a little slack for a character like Raiden b/c we have not really seen what a god can do (although he did fight Shang and Quan Chi at the opening of MKD and we saw what happened). However, the argument still holds that barring a showing otherwise, why would we assume he possesses the abilities that you claim?

And FINALLY, it's not an issue of characters being unbeatable. You are quite right in that everyone has some weakness that can be exploited. WW is vulnerable to sharp projectiles (don't get me started on that though lol Her skin can handle the heat from reentry into the atmosphere but a bullet can hurt her? lol). A Kitana fan to the chest would do the trick. Is Kitana fast enough to pull that off? No. Would she have the force necessary to make it lethal? Not sure. Would she be able to take the punches that WW would undoubtedly land before she could execute her fatal blow? No.

We will just have to agree to disagree because I'm clearly not budging you and the reverse is true. I am quite content with my belief that, given what we know about our MK characters, they are not beings at the level of someone like Superman and Wonder Woman. That is the entire reason why we need these 'event' to bridge the power gap and why the first question Boon always has to answer is "How does Scorpion fight Superman?"

I'm done posting on this topic. Happy Thursday

You're right. lol You're right.

This has been a great debate. I would like Boon to explain how he plans on "weakening" Captain Marvel, unless it's this overall "magical event" (merging of the realms) that does it. I assume getting punched by Captain Marvel, GL, WW, Superman etc. has a greater effect on your life bar compared to getting punched by Batman, Catwoman, Joker, Sonya, etc? For example, 1 Wonder Woman punch has the same effect as a 6 hit combo by Batman?

I read most of this, but has anyone mentioned or pointed out this one key factor?

CM, Superman, Flash, Batman etc.

All the DC HEROES, cannot, and will not, kill anyone.

So say they defeat the MK characters over and over, when the MK characters get that 1 defeat on a DC Hero, they will kill them...assuming they can that is.

And that's why I read Marvel!

Understandable, but Marvel has it's share of "godlike" characters: Thor (happens to be a god), Incredible Hulk, & Silver Surfer (power cosmic). I agree though that Marvel is more toned down and realistic than DC.

Huh..? Wonder Woman's not a hunter. She's considered DC's greatest warrior.

That just threw me.

About the raiden vs supes, even if we accpet the fact that lightening cant move at the speed of light (i think it does or atleast extremely close to) raiden can teleport, which by definition is the movement of an object instantanously, ergo raiden is faster than light, so in theory he can catch up to supes. (awsome i used ergo)

and about the commetn about supes breaking raidens limbs....no. he a god , even if people think that he may be weak, we have never seen the full extent of his powers. usually when hes defeated it in outworld which weakens him. plus in the game the magiv merger increases mk characters powers who is to say it didnt happen to raiden?

Who says he's weak? I never said that. Raiden is extremely powerful, but Superman is orders of magnitude more powerful than that. I think we've seen what he's capable of. Raiden was trying his best against Quan Chi and Shang Tsung and lost. He didn't die, but they bested him. That and he fought with Shang Tsung in MKSM. As I've said before, if Raiden wants to fight people he's constrained by physical laws obviously, otherwise he would be more powerful and just flash them out of existence. Raiden isn't omnipotent - this is quite obvious from his relation to the Elder Gods (even they can be bested as the story tells us). Raiden is more equivalent to a Greek Demi-God in terms of power

As for teleporting, look at what happens in that scene. Teleporting is always less effective than pure speed. Raiden actually takes a small amount of time to teleport, whereas Superman can zoom around at whatever speed he likes continuously. Hell, Superman could destroy Raiden's physical form by just zooming past him at a million million miles an hour, if he were the type to kill. (Although Raiden could regain a physical form again and can't really die (perhaps if his soul energy is destroyed like Scorpion), so maybe Supes would make an exception with prior knowledge.

At the end of the day, even if we really haven't seen Raiden's fullest power, and he's able to fight without constraints, at least I'm basing my analysis off the internal logic of MK's story, rather than just going "They haven't shown us his full power! Therefore he can travel at the speed of light and smash planets in half!".


Purely, the only way even Raiden, one of MK's strongest can compete with Superman is through Boon's magic explanation. This is the ultimate argument settlement, since it was implemented for this very reason. The other MK characters aren't miles behind Raiden either (as is obvious from the game story), so Superman will need to be weakened to fight any of them.
DC characters like Wonder Woman and Shazzam will need different explanations and as unknown as that is, I'm sure they'll get them if Superman gets one. Bad writing, ahoy?

At the end of the day it's a game, and anyone can fight and beat anyone, but they are at least trying to reconcile matchups with the combined internal logic of both franchises.

i havent read the comics so im not 100% here but i dont think supes can move at the speed of light. i have seen the movies however (probably still not enough) and tha fastest hes ever flown was enough to spin the earth the other way around ( which would destry the earth instead of stopping time w/e) if u do have proof on that just say and ill agree Ps u didnt say he was weak somone else did srry for that

srry for double post i looked it up he can move faster than light srry

Of course, Superman has changed a lot over the years.

This is from Wiki:

As originally conceived and presented in his early stories, Superman's powers were relatively limited, consisting of superhuman strength that allowed him to lift a car over his head, run at amazing speeds and leap one-eighth of a mile, as well as incredibly tough skin that could be pierced by nothing less than an exploding artillery shell.


Raiden could fight that Superman.

Almost forgot about this thread...



Haha...

- I don't believe Raiden and Superman are equals. I don't even think the idea of "God vs Mortal" should be a debatable issue without the God in the scenario having some contingencies. But, I do think it's possible for them to cancel each other out in a fight. That said, I'm not just "pulling crap out the air". There is no "crafting together" happening here.

It looks like you struggle with the fact that you can't absolutely denounce MK characters' "level", without adequate information on the two characters in question here. Raiden vs Superman. Not Sonya, not Liu Kang, I'm talking about Raiden vs Superman, and how feasible it is to consider a Power Imbalance. What are you talking about?

Anyway,

We have a bucket-load of information on Superman. So, logically, we can say he's a "high level character". Duh.

We can also compare Superman to the characters that he's beaten. Because "how powerful"///dangerous//threatening the enemy is, the better we can gauge, and define the hero.

That's, old comic book logic right there.

Superman's had what, 100's?..of enemies to size him up against? I think.

So, as far as Raiden, he's had 4. Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, Shinnok, & Onaga.

He beat Shinnok when he was an Elder God (possibly at his most powerful, and he had a little help), lost to Quan & Shang, and lost to a very circumstantial Onaga when he had all the universes kamidogu in his possession.

Point is, Of course Superman seems "on a higher level". He's beat more characters in a plethora of different circumstances. Overcome possibly hundreds of obstacles over the course of his existence -- THAT we know about.

Raiden on the other hand, is an older God than Superman as a hero. Everytime a new bio comes along, we find out he defeated somebody else (or some group of individuals [the Hoan for example]) further back in his history.

Raidens a beast, man. He's put most of the 60+ roster on their heels at some point or another (especially in the MK comics). Mainly the big bad guys. That's why they don't come around Earth unless they scheme their way around Raiden first. lol

- This:

along with fong03's mentioning it, is all my fault.

I just threw 'em out there at the end of my post. I don't study those characters, so I shouldn't a done that. When I'm wrong I know I'm wrong, My fault. heh...

- moving on then..



- Ooh now, yes it is to an exposure issue between these comic book and these video game characters. Yees it is.

I'd bet it is possible for you to answer "which issue(s)" Superman defeated so and so character, who is like, or is a god.....and how he did it. I bet you can. Batman too, WW too. GL too.

Some of these examples are whole series'. Whereas in MK, you get one shot -- one story every 2 or more yrs. And to add to that, whatever is left unexplained now becomes a plothole, or non-canon...or something else un-explained to an equivocal degree.

-We've had 7 games until MKvsDc comes out. Which, in true fashion, will be non-canon, lol!

- Well didn't I say merit? Merit basically means "demonstrating ability or achievement". Like: based on merit alone

There hasn't been a reason for an MK character to do something like move or destroy a planet, really. But clever writing could see them do it. There is no limitation for a characters abilities when you write something for them.

All it has to do is be convincing. So no, I don't "have" to "just accept" that.

- One more time. I am not talking about, and have not mentioned Sonya. BUT, I wouldn't put it past Raiden though. There just hasn't been any merit for that feat. Unlike Superman, by your explanation.

- They're (from another planet, clay...whatever. ) mortals. They're mortals, so that's what I'm gonna call 'em. They're "born", they age, they die. They're mortals...all of them you mentioned. Why is that an issue to bring up? eh..



Wha?!? It's apart of the fact concerning Raiden. You don't have to believe it "flys" for it to be fact.

Raiden only needs to take on a mortal form during Mortal Kombat. Other than that, it's up in the air man.

- Once more, I'm not talking about Liu Kang. If I//we were talking about Liu Kang, you'd probably see Batman as his plausible opposition from me. They sorta match up, but I'm not going there.

- Kang and Tsung are both Earth originated. mortal vs mortal Kangs beaten Shang Tsung a couple of times already too I think. So, it was about time Shang Tsung won one.



- No you haven't.

- No they aren't.

- I haven't imposed any feats on Raiden that were out of context for the point I was making at the time. "I wouldn't put it past Raiden to be able to ___."
Doesn't mean "I know he can do it".

Means that if he were more fleshed out, those are some of the things that I culd see reasonably within the realm of his abilities, powers, and overall powers description.

- I didn't "go" anywhere. lol I explained that a gods omnipotence over an element such as electricity, could grant him speed faster than the pre-existent character, Flash. The embroidering on Flash's chest, heels, and ears are lightning bolts for gods sakes. lol

What better way to describe "speed" do you need than that. God > Mortal.

- No, baseless...would be these "levels" you keep talking about concerning Raiden vs Superman. There isn't enough there to draw a logical conclusion on the matter. That's pretty baseless. Even though you're stubborn on the view-point that Superman is up "higher" somewhere. heh..

One question then: How is Superman a "higher level" character than Raiden?

Explain that from the facts that we have on both characters please. Simple request I think.



- Then you have a baseless, basically bias opinion, and you can't answer my latest question. See?

- How do you acknowledge, yet don't consider? When we're talking about Power Imbalance between Raiden vs Superman?

Superman has a power grade. Raiden does not.

- One-more-time, I am not talking about Scorpions ability to move a planet. lmao.

- Again, I have not imposed any erroneous abilities on Raiden. The last thing that people may not know is fact, that I did actually show you, is that Raiden can fly.
For a fact. *shrugs*



Thanks for admitting that.



What "level"? Explain it. Go get, and show me, "levels 1-5 Raiden", as well as "levels 1-5 Superman".

Where is it? In the air floating around us?

Show me a reason why Raiden can't demolish......umm.....The Gaurdians of the Universe from Green Lanterns storyline.

Show me why Raiden shouldn't be able to demolish Darkseid.

Show me why you think Raiden shouldn't demolish Superman.

Show me = Prove it

- The other characters are just that. Other characters, that are not apart of the Power Imbalance that I've been clearly laying out for you between ONLY Raiden vs Superman, AS a ridiculous "level system" between these two characters.

I haven't ventured outside of that....where did you go?



That's too bad for me I guess, I had fun.

Later.

Grrr, I said I wasn't going to post anymore! lol I hate going against my word, but I won't let statements be attributed to me that I didn't make.

Pred, your WW goof was all yours buddy. I'd like you to point out where I called her a hunter? Just accept your lack of knowledge about the character.

I also don't think you understand the concept of power levels, which is why you are having such a hard time with this. It's not a matter of Superman lv4 or whatever you think it is. It's a generic term. I don't need a numeric categorization to say that Superman is on a different level than Sonya. Their abilities show that clearly.

This was also a lol moment - "Clever writing could see them do it?" "There is no limitation for a characters abilities when you write something for them. " Clever writing can make anything possible. No limitation to their abilities when you write? In that case, we could give Batman the ability to destroy an entire galaxy with a mere though. He hasn't had the need to do it yet, but with some clever writing, it's possible! - Doesn't help your argument at all. lol

Also, saying "I wouldn't put it past him to be able to . . ." does not get you off the hook. You imply that its possible with that statement. An implication that is not based on anything really. He's a god? So is Aphrodite, and I doubt she's stronger than Supes.

You expect me to "prove" to you that Raiden is not on the same level as Superman, when you cannot "prove" to me that he is. Everything you've written about him is "your" speculation. Everything I've said is based on what the characters have done. The only concrete pieces of evidence that you've given is that he can teleport (which a ton of MK players can do), he can fly (so can Sindel) and that he has mastery over lightning. Everything else boils down to, "we haven't seen him do it but that doesn't mean he can't" That argument would work, if you had something more to back it up on. You also ignore all of the valid points I've made about the other characters, but I'll get to that in a second.

I again, laughed at loud, when you mentioned lightning on Flash's boots. Lightning travels substantially slower than the speed of light (some say 1/2 to 1/3 the speed of light). Flash (West) can travel much, much faster than that. I point this out only as an example of your grasping at straws (and making erroneous conclusions) to bolster your argument.

You are also unwilling to admit any of the holes in your argument. I like when you thanked me for making an admission in my paragraph about Kitana and WW, yet you completely ignored that the whole point of the paragraph was to show that Kitana could NOT hang in a fight with WW, even though WW can be defeated. Talk about selective reading.

Also your God > Mortal generalization is not always the case. It depends on the god and it depends on the mortal. It also probably depends on who's writing the story. The number of Superman vs Thor threads that you could read is enough to show you that.

While we are on the subject of mortality, I want to clear something up. I blame myself for using your words. I was clearly speaking about humans in the prior post. When you replied, you started talking about mortals, which is not the point that I was making. I should have corrected you in my last post, but I used your terminology. That was my mistake. Supes and WW are NOT humans. As for mortality, that depends on the writer but Shazam and WW have been written as immortal. That is another error on your part so you might want to address that.

And your entire post centered around Raiden. Let's just assume that everything you've conjectured (it's all conjecture buddy) about Raiden is true and that he is as strong as Superman, as fast as Flash, etc.. That is 1 character on the roster. We are talking about the entire MK side. So until you can explain how the rest of the MK side can hang in with Shazam, WW, GL, Flash, Superman and whatever other characters are announced, the imbalance point will NOT go away. And I'll save you some time, lol. You can't even make your same arguments with Shinnok, Fujin or Onaga b/c we know they won't be in the game. I also doubt Shao Kahn will be playable as he's likely to be part of the mash up boss.

AGAIN, there is a reason why there is a story element to explain it. You seem to be one of very, very few people who's initial reaction was not "How in he heck is that going to work?" There are valid points to there being a clear difference in levels between the two sides. And I mention it yet again, but obviously the MK team acknowledges that or Boon wouldn't be answering the question all the time. What was the first thing Palmiatti said to himself when he was approached with the idea? "What are we going to do with Superman and Wonder Woman?" That clearly shows that the writers were aware that something had to be done to some of the DC heroes to make the game somewhat feasible.

The Raiden vs. Superman argument was started by you. (that post had a ton of errors in it by the way, and a lot of moot points b/c Raiden WILL be in mortal form in this game) I assume that early on you realized you couldn't possibly win the argument using any other character, which is why you ignored all of the other examples I gave you. You have not convinced me that Raiden is as powerful a character as Superman, but even if you had, so what? That was not the point of this thread. The game is not Raiden vs DCU or MK vs Batman Universe lol. And I'll say it for the last time, aside from misrepresenting the abilities of several DC heroes, speculating what you think Raiden *should* be capable, and lamenting about the fact that MK writers have never shown MK characters doing feats of someone like a Superman, what have you really said? :) Has it ever occurred to you that the reason some of these things have not been shown is because the characters can't do them? :) It's a possibility worth considering bud :)

Now, barring some gross misrepresentation of anything that I've said, I'm truly done this time! lol

If characters can use max power, they do. If Raiden was as powerful as Quan and Shang he wold have defeated them instantly. Raiden does not possess that kind of power, that's the bottom line.

He's a very powerful character, possibly the most powerful in the MK universe (Shinnok? I think Raiden is stronger), but if Raiden can move as fast as light and move planets, he would have defeated Shang and Quan instantly. Onaga was different, due to being protected by the Kamidogu, but Superman could have just tossed Onaga into space. Why didn't Raiden do that? That, and Supes can produce more force with his eye lasers than Raiden's entire sacrificial blast (which was like a mini-nuke, Supes could potentially strip the earth). Raiden also fought with Shang in Shaolin Monks while on earthrealm, and he couldn't just blow him away.

If Raiden did suddenly start moving planets and moving faster than the eye, that would be plain bad writing. It would have no logic based on prior events, and that's what people are really talking about when they propose fictional characters versing each other - it's all down to established logic.

predator where did u find that raiden bio

Temperature of the lightning, discharge: 50.000-55.000 F (28.000-30.000K)

-Lide, David R. Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1996: 14-33.
-McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology. McGraw Hill, 1997: 74.
-Lightning. National Weather Service Office, Newport North Carolina.
-Weather and Climate. Alexandria, Virginia: Time Life, 1992.

Sun - photosphere:
10.000 F. only five times as hotter. But not the actual lightning bolt. The air around it, and it is instantaneously dissipated and sitributed. Problem is solved> otherwise how could a man survive in his lifetime FIVE consecutive lightning strikes?

Also aside the point, I may want to talk to your professor for saying that the speed of light is an absolute constant. What happens with photons inside a gravity well, hell, black hole even? Gravitational lensing bending the stream of photons? I am no epxert, but permanent fluctuations HAVE to exist.



That is probably so far the most-encompassing explanation yet. But I dare recall the MK1 bios which said that the specific reason on the invitation of Raiden was for Shang Tsung to steal Raidens soul. More or less this could mean that death by other hands than his own could possibly mean death for Raiden. Deicide if I may say so.

It seems to me, that despite his efforts, if Raiden is felled by an exceptionally powerful foe (Deadly Aliance - why didnt those idiots make sure he is down??) he will cease to exist
.

why are people arguing this? the story is being written by DC comic book writers obviously everything will be explained perfectly well since its the DC writers >:/
and stop comparing supermans powers like " he can move a planet" the story explained hes weaker now and so i assume he isn't strong enough to do that anymore. plus consider the facts his powers have been re written so many times to tone him down because hes mister unbeatable.
from what ive seen through out these years superman can get his ass kicked now a days, also considering the fact batman is able to kill him :D

now yes most of us assume MK characters are weak little humans compared to DC but hasn't anyone noticed in the games that they can uppercut people into other levels of buildings, you've seen them smash through brick walls, and slam people through floors, also what about fatality's people? most of these guys can pull your skeleton right out of your body, can pound you into the ground ( like sheeva and superman) smoke can blow up the earth XD

admit it people judging from the crazy antics we've seen in MK games like i mentioned ( super uppers cuts, smashing through walls, punching peoples body parts right off or even ripping them off barehanded.) you guys gotta give MK characters more credit when it comes to strength :P MK has super powered people.

basically have faith in the DC writers because they had much more experience with comic story plots and can probably explain EVERYTHING in the story mode.