Cyber Sub-Zero: how would you have done his story differently?

•01/23/2012 12:52 AM (UTC) •

ProudNintendofan Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Venkman28 Wrote:
Jaded-Raven, how did you handle Jade getting her heart ripped out and made into a zombie slave of Quan Chi's?

First of all, I think she had the coolest death of all the heroes. True MK style.
Second, I see it as an opportunity for her to be part of the Brotherhood of the Shadows which is my favourite cult/organisation of the entire series. I have a feeling NRS will drop the ball on that though and just have her be resurrected along with the other heroes when Shinnok and Quan Chi have been defeated, but a man can dream.

I overall think Jade got a cool storyline treatment this time around, considering all the stuff that was rebooted. She was really cool in this game's plot. I didn't even think she would get her own chapter which was also quite a nice surprise when I found out. I'm overall satisfied with how she was presented.

I'm one of the few who liked the changes done to many of these characters. There are some things I think NRS did very wrong, like the whole Kitana/Mileena thing, Shang Tsung's weak death and how Quan Chi was pushed into the spotlight and taking over many of Shang's key plotlines, but to have almost all the heroes die was bold move made by NRS and I respect that. Their initial deaths were weak though, as in the fighting scene with Sindel VS the heroes being somewhat boring - it could have been ALOT more epic and I think it should have been as well - but the fact that they died is kinda cool, in my opinion.

To lead this back on-topic:
Sub-Zero turning into a cyborg was another really bold move by NRS, since he is one of the top favourite characters of MK. Fans hate changes and then it doesn't matter if they make sense or not. Many of the changes in this game don't make sense, but Sub-Zero turning into a cyborg did. I believe in karma and trying to change the future will have severe consequences. Though the end result might be for the better (Shao Kahn dying and won't be the one who win the Armageddon War), heavy sacrifices must be made. Raiden saved Smoke from his tragic destiny, but then made it worse for Sub-Zero, ultimately changing his very future - at least if you ask some of the fans on this forum who refuse to believe Subbie will ever be able to make the same achievements he did in the old timeline now that he is a cyborg, while I fully believe that he is indeed capable of doing so in his current state.

I hold the MK team for their word when they said "No one really dies in MK", so having a character die is not that big a deal to me. Mileena only became cooler and more interesting after her death, one of my favourite characters were introduced as a "dead" character from the start (that being Reiko) and he is quite awesome, and Noob Saibot is in my opinion ALOT cooler than when he was the original Sub-Zero (no pun intended). Death is not the end of a character, nor is becoming a cyborg, it opens new paths for that character to wander if only NRS keeps the creative juices flowing and make things happen!

If I would change anything about Cyborg Subbie, it would be making him a more unique moveset, but that's it, really. He is still fun to play as though. ^^

Hey yeah, taking risks is one thing, I can imagine fans might've been less angry about Cyber Sub-Zero and all the heroes deaths if they had been better executed.

I'm going to disagree with you ProudNintendofan. While I agree with you on many things I don't really think that Cyber Sub-Zero as Kuai Liang would have ever, ever went over well. Nor would all of the deaths. These are the most popular characters, the ones from the trilogy. Don't F**k with them like that. Killing them off serves no purpose if they come back to life, and turning someone into a cyborg serves even less purpose.

The only way Cyber Subz could go over well is if A. he was introduced as Hydro. Or b. He's a clone of either Kuai Liang or Bi Han. That's it though.

People also need to think this is the first playable character to ever be turned into a full cyborg.

Smoke was not playable as human. He was first playable as a cyborg.

Sektor and Cyrax were both introduced as cyborgs.

Sub-Zero has always been playable as human, and has been in every game. Throwing him in as a cyborg is bound to get a negative reaction. I've said it before we as human beings are shallow as hell. Sorry to tell you guys.

Nobody liked Liu Kang as a Zombie.

People fight over whether Jade is black or not.

People complain over the girls looking like sluts.

People complain over Reptile looking like Lizard Man.

Smoke fans complained FOREVER about Smoke being cyborg.

All of these complaints, yet when Sub-Zero fans get their character turned into a friggin cyborg, we are overreacting.WTF? Not to mention this change could affect his story hugely. I just think people are liking Cyber Subz for the lolz. A lot won't admit it, but that's the biggest reason they support him.

He's not a popular character. I mean look how low he is in the rankings. A lot of people just want to support him though because it's sticking it to Sub-Zero fans. Which is kind of childish, but whatevs.

•01/23/2012 05:12 AM (UTC) •

Scar_Subby Wrote:

You told me to deal with it.
When are you going to deal with it?
We can't have people going around with double standards now, can we?

Chrome

@Chrome

About Me

•01/23/2012 07:25 AM (UTC) •

Scar_Subby Wrote:

ProudNintendofan Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Venkman28 Wrote:
Jaded-Raven, how did you handle Jade getting her heart ripped out and made into a zombie slave of Quan Chi's?

Hey yeah, taking risks is one thing, I can imagine fans might've been less angry about Cyber Sub-Zero and all the heroes deaths if they had been better executed.

This post was enough to not bother with your reasoning.

Mortal KOmbat GEEWUN!

Espio872

@Espio872

•01/23/2012 08:13 AM (UTC) •

Human Subbie will be back in some form or another...I don't even know why people are tripping about it.

CSZ was one of those things they did as a plot twist to shock fans, they didn't even truly commit to him, they had him under mind control for a minute, restored his humanity and killed him in about 20 minutes.

I would not be the least bit surprised if the back peddled on the whole thing..it wouldn't be the first time.

I don't care either way at this point, I just want everyone from this game to be playable next game.

RazorsEdge701

@RazorsEdge701

About Me

•01/23/2012 09:25 AM (UTC) •

Espio872 Wrote:
I don't even know why people are tripping about it.

Well...and this doesn't just apply to CSZ but to the whole game and common philosophies about it like "I don't mind what happened in this one because now they've set up some stuff that'll be great in the next one" or "so what that they died? They're gonna bring 'em back", it's kinda hard to get into and enjoy a story if you didn't like the beginning, no matter how good the ending is.

Even if MK10 is awesome, it's not going to magically go back and rewrite MK9 to make it better. "What has been seen cannot be unseen" and all that.

•01/23/2012 12:24 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:

Espio872 Wrote:
I don't even know why people are tripping about it.

Now that we're talking about sayings...

I think some people should just "forgive and forget" and simply move on. Holding a grudge isn't healthy for anyone.

Sub-Zero_7th

@Sub-Zero_7th

•01/23/2012 03:45 PM (UTC) •

Actually, I have to agree with Razor about his saying on those that keep bringing about the possibilities for the next game's story. We have to expect the standards of the storytelling and characterizations to be low.

About Cyber Sub-Zero, I think that the concept of having Sub-Zero as a cyborg could have worked had it been done so much better. The problem mainly stems from the story of the game itself. Had this been a full reboot, one that wasn't connected to the timeline of MK1-MKA, Sub-Zero could have been introduced in a new light instead of having the destiny of the established Sub-Zero be altered into becoming a victim like Smoke.

However, for the parameters of MK2011's story, I would say that in Kuai Liang's battle against Scorpion at Shao Kahn's tournament, Scorpion could have gained the upper hand by badly wounding Sub-Zero. The Lin Kuei would appear to take Sub-Zero back to automate him to save his life and to make a new cyborg. When Sub-Zero regains his self-control, his aid to the heroes should be as a realization of the bigger picture, namely saving Earth from Shao Kahn's tyranny.

It would have been nice for Sub-Zero to have actually survived so that he can really go on to make the most out of his current condition despite being against the cyber initiative. He could help the remaining heroes fight Shinnok's and Quan Chi's forces, and he could use what secrets Bi-Han passed on to him in order to defeat them. In addition, he could try to eliminate Noob Saibot in order to free Bi-Han's soul, if that's possible.

Having Sub-Zero be killed by Sindel and later be turned into one of Quan Chi's zombie slaves is stupid, because it does nothing good for the character, and it's just more shock value for the sake of shock value. If Sub-Zero had actually survived at the end, there could actually be some good things done with him.

IceDragon248

@IceDragon248

•01/23/2012 08:58 PM (UTC) •

I havent read through this thread so I hope it doesn't look like im stealing anybody's ideas but what I would do is have Bi-Han killed by Scorpion. Kuai Lang, then known as Tundra, wants to find his Bi-Han's killer but the Lin Kuei orders him to stay because he is too be used in the Cyber intiative. Tundra and Smoke believe the Cyber Initiative is a bad idea and are being forced to go through with it. Tundra disobeys them and defects from the Lin Kuei, Smoke aids him and the two escape together. Tundra assumes the mantle of Sub-Zero both to honor his brother and to hide from the Lin Kuei.Together Sub-Zero and Smoke journey through Outworld to discover the truth.

Meanwhile the Lin Kuei is furious at them. The Grandmaster orders that Smoke be captured alive, he has plans of his own for Tundra. He orders the newly automated Sektor and Cyrax to recover Bi-Han's body. The two travel to seek out Scorpion, only he knows where Bi-Hans body lay. They encounter Scorpion and defeat him, he say's that Bi Han is rotting in the depths of the Netherealm where he belongs. The two go to the Netherealm and find Bi-Han's charred corpse. They report back to Lin Keui headquarters with the body and The Grandmaster orders Bi-Han automated because of his loyalty to the clan.

Smoke and Sub-Zero, now mixed up in the middle of the MK2 tournament, continue in Outworld. Sub-Zero fights his way through the tournament in hopes of discovering the truth. After defeating Quan Chi he reveals that Scorpion was his brother's killer. Sub-Zero and Smoke leave the tournament and find Scorpion in the living forest. Sub-Zero says he has come to avenge his brother Bi-Han. The two get into a knockdown drag out brawl that gets interrupted when Sektor, Cyrax, and a brand new Cyborg appear. Sub-Zero and Smoke recognize Sektor and Cyrax but not this new Cyborg.

When questioned the cyborg answers in a robotic voice "I am Lin Kuei unit LK - 520. Codename: Tundra." He attacks Sub-Zero with Ice-based powers and defeats him as Cyrax and Sektor subdue Smoke. Sub-Zero questions "How is this possible?". Sektor replies "Bi-Han's body was put to good use, as will your friends" Sub-Zero enraged charges after the three and is badly beaten, he receives a brutal scar over his eye after Tundra uses his Ice blade. "You have been targeted for termination" Says Tundra. Before he gives the killing blow Sub-Zero hits Tundra with an ice ball immobilizing him and escapes.

The Grandmaster has Smoke automated. He assigns the teams of Sektor/Cyrax and Smoke/Tundra to hunt down and kill Sub-Zero. Sub-Zero ditches his ninja garb and goes with an MK 3 type look, he wants the Lin Kuei to find him. He vows to destroy the abomination called "Tundra" and the rest of the Lin Kuei and to free his friend Smoke.

Hope this isnt too long haha hope you guys like it.

Zmoke

@Zmoke

•01/23/2012 09:16 PM (UTC) •

Tundra = Kuai Liang = Cyber Sub-Zero = Young Sub-Zero (same person)

IceDragon248

@IceDragon248

•01/23/2012 09:53 PM (UTC) •

Zmoke Wrote:
Tundra = Kuai Liang = Cyber Sub-Zero = Young Sub-Zero (same person)

Dont know if you're talking to me but yeah I know but I made it so The Grandmaster gave Cyber Bi-Han the codename Tundra as a fuck you too Kuai Lang for defecting.

•01/23/2012 10:03 PM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

You told me to deal with it.
When are you going to deal with it?
We can't have people going around with double standards now, can we?

Oh I've dealt with it. Ain't nothin bringing Sub-Zero back, at least for a minute.

Also that comment wasn't directed at you. It was just a general statement that people who are tired of Scorpion and Sub-Zero just need to get over it basically. They are the faces of the brand and just because some crap happened to them in this game doesn't mean they won't be faces of the brand in the future. Other franchises have mascots, they are Mk's. It's just truth.

As far as my post goes though I was simply stating the argument that people b**ch about all of those things, Jades ethnicity, Zombie Kang, Lizard Reptile, yet when Sub-Zero fans hate cyber sub-zero we need more of a reason or we are being irrational. Talk about a double standard well there's one for ya.

•01/25/2012 12:53 AM (UTC) •

Scar_Subby Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

You told me to deal with it.
When are you going to deal with it?
We can't have people going around with double standards now, can we?

But Sub-Zero hasn't gone anywhere. He is just a cyborg now.

It is typical for games to have mascots and it is usually the main characters of those respected games, but there are also games who do fine without having those. Soul Calibur have some more important storyline characters such as Siegfried and Nightmare, but they aren't considered direct mascots and aren't put in front of all the other characters. However, with Scorpion and Sub-Zero, we see them EVERYWHERE! Everytime there's something about Mortal Kombat, either one of them or both of them are put up front. And if some of the other characters appear as well, those two are put in front of them. That's what I mean with NRS shoving them down our throats. And as you pointed out, they aren't even important to the main storyline, they are just fan favourites (and in Scorpion's case, Ed Boon's favourite as well).

We are all here to discuss Mortal Kombat and discussing Sub-Zero is no exception. There will always be some who prefer one side of a character over another, just like with Human/Cyborg Smoke, Good/Evil Kitana, Alive/Zombie Liu Kang etc etc, but no single group are being treated differently from the others. Just this "Subbie turning cyborg" topic is still fresh and still being discussed, so it feels like you are being targetted, but really, back in the MKD days, this very same discussion was about Smoke and his appearance in that game. There are no double standards there, people have just moved past it and are now focusing on this discussion instead, hence why you might feel treated differently from the rest.

Oh, and Jade is Edenian. That's her ethnicity. Everyone else claiming something different is wrong. ;)

RazorsEdge701

@RazorsEdge701

About Me

•01/25/2012 02:16 AM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Oh, and Jade is Edenian. That's her ethnicity. Everyone else claiming something different is wrong. ;)

Well now that's like saying your ethnicity is "Human" or "Earthling". Edenian is her species.

It just happens that we don't know what the word for a brown Edenian is.

•01/25/2012 02:22 AM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Oh, and Jade is Edenian. That's her ethnicity. Everyone else claiming something different is wrong. ;)

Well now that's like saying your ethnicity is "Human" or "Earthling". Edenian is her species.

It just happens that we don't know what the word for a brown Edenian is.

True, we only know Edenia as Edenia, we haven't gotten any information about where in Edenia she was born or if other Edenians from her birthplace share the same tan as she does, like if Tanya was born in the same area. So until then, her ethnicity is simply Edenian.

Sorry about the off-topic.

•01/25/2012 05:10 AM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

You told me to deal with it.
When are you going to deal with it?
We can't have people going around with double standards now, can we?

True dat on people will always have their favorite side of a character. It's just human nature I guess.

Also on Jade's ethnicity. I'm just going to say i think she's Arabic or Indian. At least that's what I think. Jade's desert also helps me in thinking that as well. Even though now it's just The Desert, or was it always the desert and we just called it jade's desert?

Mojo6

@Mojo6

About Me

•01/25/2012 05:37 AM (UTC) •

Ah good to see you again "Jade's Ethnicity", it's been a while! Hopefully you've brought along "Lack of Female Clothing" too. I just got off the phone with "Sub-Zero isn't a Ninja" so hopefully we can really get this redundant MKO topic party started.

•01/25/2012 06:15 AM (UTC) •

Mojo6 Wrote:
Ah good to see you again "Jade's Ethnicity", it's been a while! Hopefully you've brought along "Lack of Female Clothing" too. I just got off the phone with "Sub-Zero isn't a Ninja" so hopefully we can really get this redundant MKO topic party started.

Hey hey hey!
Get back on topic, you!
No need for all this silliness. ;P

RazorsEdge701

@RazorsEdge701

About Me

•01/25/2012 06:58 AM (UTC) •

Scar_Subby Wrote:
or was it always the desert and we just called it jade's desert?

In UMK3, the official name was "Jade's Desert". 'Course, it wasn't Sindel-themed back then, her resurrection was implied to have taken place in the Church, what with it having Kahn's logo on the floor in MK3. I don't know WHY they decided to put her in the desert and the heroes in the damn church, especially when even in this game, there's evil shadow priests raising zombies back there.

Chrome

@Chrome

About Me

•01/25/2012 08:58 AM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:

Scar_Subby Wrote:

You told me to deal with it.
When are you going to deal with it?
We can't have people going around with double standards now, can we?

But Sub-Zero hasn't gone anywhere. He is just a cyborg now.

Oh, and Jade is Edenian. That's her ethnicity. Everyone else claiming something different is wrong. ;)

Depends. I know NRS will not bother with it, but the idea of a CSZ could be well worth it. We already know that he adjusted better to the new form, even if he has no high opinion about it. Plus the guy is visually more appealing to me since they stopped developing Subs ever since the MKDA mask came along and aside MKD he looks almost the same.

You could argue that the Robocop-humanity story has been told with Cyrax, which is correct and also quite obviously not. Cyrax asks for his humanity, Jax and co restore it. That is not a story, that is afootnote in a play at best. And MKDA gave Cyrax another angle which delat little with his humanity (which can apparently withstand molten lava).

Hell, MK9 Cyborg Sub Zero had more to do with humanity than the previous games altogether. But that again depended on the fact that MK9 TOLD a story, and not just pushed images with narration into our faces.

A brown Edenian is called a tomblerone.

•01/25/2012 10:57 AM (UTC) •

Chrome Wrote:

A brown Edenian is called a tomblerone.

I almost choked laughing at this. XD

•01/25/2012 09:34 PM (UTC) •

You know though Jaded Raven in response to you saying he is still there though. Jusy as a cyborg. No, he isn't. That just slipped my mind I guess. He's dead. That's another part that pissed me off. When you die, no matter who you are, your soul should look human. It's your soul.

He was still a cyborg, I mean you can say yea they were just there in the form they were last seen in. However, that still doesn't make sense to me.

Also, a good question. Maybe that wasn't their souls. Did anyone think about that? They looked like zombies, which would imply that maybe that was their bodies he used and not their souls. I mean how do you fight a soul anyway. So maybe Quan doesn't have control of their souls, but in actuality it's like Zombie Kang on a mass scale. He's just using their bodies like puppets.

He has their bodies, but not their souls. Maybe their souls are in Limbo or something. I don't know it's just something to think about.

Did we ever see the bodies laying on the ground again after we saw the warriors in Quan's possession?

It's just a question one has to wonder. Remember in Deception Kang's soul looked like a ghost. While his body was still used on Earth, and since they look like Kang or similar anyway. Maybe he just took their bodies.

Also you can't make the argument that Smoke was a cyborg in the netherrealm, because Smoke never actually died. He was just shut down until Noob came along and rebooted him. Then when they entered the netherrealm the nanobots reacted and made him that ethereal form. So Smoke being a cyborg in the netherrealm, and cyber subz being a cyborg in the netherrealm are completely different things. Because Smoke never actually died, Sub-Zero did.

•01/25/2012 09:39 PM (UTC) •

Scar_Subby Wrote:
You know though Jaded Raven in response to you saying he is still there though. Jusy as a cyborg. No, he isn't. That just slipped my mind I guess. He's dead. That's another part that pissed me off. When you die, no matter who you are, your soul should look human. It's your soul.

He was still a cyborg, I mean you can say yea they were just there in the form they were last seen in. However, that still doesn't make sense to me.

Also, a good question. Maybe that wasn't their souls. Did anyone think about that? They looked like zombies, which would imply that maybe that was their bodies he used and not their souls. I mean how do you fight a soul anyway. So maybe Quan doesn't have control of their souls, but in actuality it's like Zombie Kang on a mass scale. He's just using their bodies like puppets.

He has their bodies, but not their souls. Maybe their souls are in Limbo or something. I don't know it's just something to think about.

Did we ever see the bodies laying on the ground again after we saw the warriors in Quan's possession?

It's just a question one has to wonder. Remember in Deception Kang's soul looked like a ghost. While his body was still used on Earth, and since they look like Kang or similar anyway. Maybe he just took their bodies.

Also you can't make the argument that Smoke was a cyborg in the netherrealm, because Smoke never actually died. He was just shut down until Noob came along and rebooted him. Then when they entered the netherrealm the nanobots reacted and made him that ethereal form. So Smoke being a cyborg in the netherrealm, and cyber subz being a cyborg in the netherrealm are completely different things. Because Smoke never actually died, Sub-Zero did.

No one truly dies in Mortal Kombat. And how the souls should look like in MK is not for you to decide. Sorry. And I never made the arguement that Smoke was a cyborg in the Netherrealm. Don't know where you got that from.

Ninja_Mime

@Ninja_Mime

About Me

•01/25/2012 09:54 PM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
And how the souls should look like in MK is not for you to decide. Sorry.

Why do you always feel the need to take this condescending tone when someone disagrees with you? Scar_Subby brought up some valid points of conversation, and that's all you had to add? Also, the "No one ever really dies in Mortal Kombat" quote has been blown out of proportion over the years. It has little to do with the actual story and more to do with the MK team being prone to retcon deaths.

Regarding that, it is interesting to consider the difference between the body and soul. In MK2011, is the term "zombie kombat" not used to describe the undead look that Quan Chi's slaves had? In that case, it may very well just be their bodies, with the souls completely disconnected.

And as you mentioned, we have seen a case of the body and soul being separate before:

Perhaps it's a similar case.

•01/25/2012 10:04 PM (UTC) •

Ninja_Mime Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
And how the souls should look like in MK is not for you to decide. Sorry.

Perhaps it's a similar case.

It's in my nature. I'm sorry about that, for real. :(
Scar-Subby, sorry about sounding bitchy.

But yes, they are good and valid points. Quan Chi has necromantic powers, so it would make sense that he uses their undead bodies, however, I still think he controls their souls as well, like he does with Noob's and Scorpion's.