Lol.

I have a few options of what I'd say if I could have replaced the "he must win".

Just a few off the top of my head

1. Sub-Zero must not become a cyborg.lol

2. Things are going to change that you don't even effect, so this mental message you receive...ignore it all together

3. Johnny Cage isn't worth the rest of the heroes!

4. You suck at life, and you're a complete idiot.

5. God of Blunder will be a nickname you might want to get used too.

Yea that sums up my messages to Raiden, with number 3 possibly being my favorite

You know what. I just thought of another reason I hate Raiden this time around. In that vision Raiden seen of Sub-Zero, Subz was bowing to him. You only bow to people as a sign of respect to them. That's why people bow to kings, and people bow their heads when praying. Sub-Zero honored Raiden in the old timeline, and was one of his best fighters. What does he get for it? Left behind. He just got left to the dogs, while Raiden, Smoke, Johnny, and whatever other heroes watched. Thanks Raiden, what a freakin stand-up leader you are. Another Good nickname for Raiden, God of Douche.lol

A dialog requires two people to interact. You meant text.


They never gave two cents more about the story as before. Story for fighting games is like story for porn. It is required to minimally give a boundary to the whole game. Other than that, zero.

In hindsight, the only time MK has ever came close to being story driven is... never. MK:DA gave us MORE story and background detail, MKD gave a more fleshed out cosmogony for the world, but mostly because of Konquest mode, and the fact that Vogel likes to metacreatively give background to most things.

The allmighty Tobias is no exemption, all that mythological research? I call bullshit. Finding a name and footnote about chinese brigands isn't exactly research. Raiden? Yes, well, that is not the name of the deity proper.

Eventually you have to accept that MK never had or will have with the current setup a story for the sake of story, it has always been fluff, the icing on the cake. We have read too much into it throughout the franchise, and I see it even more so that we attribute too much significance to something what has not been significant before.


And yes, this IS the MK game of all time currently.

Personally, I think he looks like a Predator helmet on a girl's body.

Seriously, look at the dude's waist compared to his chest and hips. He has an hourglass figure. And Sektor and Cyrax don't, their torsos are in proper proportion, so...why?

Not his fault that he's got booty. XD

Cysuze is pretty cool.


[no bun intended]

That always baffeled me as well... but i just assummed that it was just Sub-Zero's brain in the body which explains the reasoning for the shape.

Well, he looks okay though. I was just makin a general statment as well to make a point. Like yea he looks okay now, but wait a few games. I should have worded it different.

I must say though,now that you've mentioned it, his body is rather feminine. Like Cyrax and Sektor look male. Cyber Subz body is very thin though, and almost womanly.

Also, you're right on the head. I've said from the beginning he looks like predator. I get it, the cyborgs were based off of predator, but that doesn't mean they have to look exactly like predator. Sub-Zero has the freakin blue tooth headsets on his mouth that make him look exactly like predator. So, yea your assumption is correct Razer he looks rather feminine with a predator helmet.lol.

Personally Cyrax is my favorite cyborg design this time around, but for some reason people want to go on about how cool cyber subz look. I think Cyrax design blew it out of the water though.

The only cyborg design I even like at all is Sektor's, personally. Except for him, I always use the retro or human alts when I play as them.

Cyrax is just too yellow, not enough silver and black, reminds me too much of Annihilation...and there's something off about the shape of his helmet that I can't describe in words, I just don't like the aesthetics of him.

I'll agree that Sektor's design was done incredibly well. He seems the most realistic out of all the cyborgs.

By realistic, I mean he looks bulkier. I could be in the minority hear, but I don't see any machine looking like it would move fast, and cyber subz along with cyrax both look slimmer and fast. Sektor looks like a tank though, like how I would expect a cyborg fighter to look. His stance almost looks as if it weighs him down as well. I don't know, I just think in the fighting realm no machine is going to move incredibly fast. It's metal for christ's sake. Anything providing motion to it would have to be incredibly strong.

People who disagree with your opinion about story, just every single one of them, too much enamored with gameplay? I don't think so. =)


WTF? Seems you played something different than everyone else. Because aside from some dialogue Cage and Sonya didn't develop into lovey-dovey couple.
Even if that was true I don't see nothing bad about using the idea that was in there almost since its begining.


Like Cage and Sonya were underdeveloped? Scorpion was underdeveloped? Smoke, Stryker, Liu Kang, Kung Lao - all this were badly developed?
I know some guys could be pretty dilisuoned when it comes to this story, but you take it to the new heights.


And I'd say that its out of character for him to become all mopey and depressed since he is not in human body anymore.


It's just your personal problem.
I could perfectly relate to the character no matter what he is, as long said character keeps being interesting story and appearance-wise.
Or as Jaded-Raven stated:
It's you, however, who just sees them as machines. That's the problem. It's your view of them that seems to be what is stopping you from seeing their potential.


Bullshit.
Character could be interesting even, if he couldn't show any emotions on the face. You tottaly forgot about voice acting and mimic. Though it shouldn't be surprising with your mindset "machine is just machine".
Darth Vader achieved cult status and his face was only shown in the end of the third movie (old one). He became interesting because of the awesome voice acting and how his personality was chanelled through his mimic. I don't think you will understand it, since CSZ, Sektor and Cyrax just machines for you, but they really could have (and they already have) their own personalities.


It's gone! Wiped out! I don't see any reason to repeat the old story to a "T" - there is old games for this.


Bullshit!!
If CSZ beats Sektor he will do it because he is not machine-like inside. He still reatains what make him human, even if he is not have human body anymore. Sektor gave up his humanity and decided to become all machine-like. If CSZ beats him it would mean that no matter you can't just simply delete humanity with reprogramming and technical mumbo-jumbo, and that in the end, humanity is still stronger than machine.
It would be pretty interesting, and while I oppose recreation of the old timeline in the new one, I think this fight could be very symbolic for the Sub-Zero.


I completely agree with your opinion about CSZ.


We'll see.

Anybody looking to sip some hater-ade?

Lol. Don't open that floodgate. He likes to tell everyone else their opinions are wrong and often in a hostile way. I just learned to deal with it.lol.

Well, he isn't really hating on Cyber Subbie, just on people who don't like him. It's not right to do so, but I wouldn't call him a hater for that reason. And like Scar said, there's no need to make a comment like this to try and start some pointless arguing.

What was hostile about what I said?
That your personal "beliefs" doesn't allow you to see potential in the character?
Very hostile, yeah.

More like you don't know how to answer me without screwing up, since I could counter practically everything, you throw as "argument", as I did in the past.
And by the way, I don'y hate people who dislike CSZ. I hate some of their arguments, that I see flawed and illogical. Oh, and I have a strong dislike for the people who instead of making logic-based statements, degrade their arguments into childish temper tanrums, as our common friend Subby.

You've never countered anything. What the hell are you even talking about? It's your opinion against my opinion because neither of us is truly right or wrong. That's essentially what you're saying though. You've countered my arguments, so you think that they are worthless arguments. That's your opinion though bud. That's your logic too, everyone's opinion is less than yours. It's your opinion against mine though at the end of the day. You cannot counter anything truly because in order to counter my argument and win, you would have to definitively be right, and guess what? You can't do that. Nobody, besides NRS, can.

You always think you are right though, and if anyone disagrees with you, you talk down to them. Even in your last comment you take a condescending tone saying I can't anwer to you without screwing up. Also, the reason I say that you are "hostile" is because of one reason. Remember the last time you discussed with me? You honestly couldn't come up with anything better than to insult my english, acting like a kid.

I'm still going to say it doesn't mean as much beating Sektor because he's a cyborg. He's not really proving anything besides, "Hey, I'm the good cyborg. I can lead the Lin Kuei now instead of the bad cyborg." Because the humanity aspect that it once had is dead, They both have humanity so to say, if you want to look at it like that. Why do I say that? Because they both have their minds, and technically souls. Really, tell me, What's different about Sub-Zero from Sektor now besides the fact he is aligned with the good guys? Short Answer: Nothing. He's a cyborg who, at a whim, could have his humanity ripped away from him again. Which shows me he's not as good as his human version.

That's my opinion and I'm going to keep that opinion too. Go ahead and tell me I'm dumb for having that opinion now like I know you're going to.

I can also definitively think of one point were I proved YOU wrong. That was were i said that human Sub-Zero clearly has more fans than Cyber Subz, just look at the official site.

You're argument was, "Oh, not everyone votes on that site." Only to find out that it's based on gameplay statistics of everyone, there's no voting to it.

It's always just going to be your opinion RedSumac. Get over it. You aren't as right as you think you are. Now don't turn this thread into another argument. Just end it. Seriously stop the crap.

Guys, guys, don't start a flamewar again. Okay? ^^

There's really zero reason why these topics cannot be discussed with an air of maturity and common sense, when we're dealing with opinion based issues, the best you're going to end up with is agree or disagree.


There is zero reason to be condescending and rude or confrontational.

You mean... Sub-Zero reason...! XD
Okay, sorry, I just had to. ;P

Nice one. =)


Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
There is such thing as "wrong arhuments" and "right ones".
For example you can say that Earth is flat and vehemnetly believe in it. However would it be true? Nope. The same with most of your arguments about why CSZ is bad.

And on the note: the fact that you can't see robots / cyborgs as potentially interesting characters with personality, render most of your arguments completely useless, since its just your subjective problem, that have nothing to do with objectivity.


I don't remember that I insulted your English, since it would put myself into awkward postion.
I remember I said that you acting like a kid and honestly your posts in the last five pages did nothing to convince me otherwise. They mostly consisted from the same arguments, that you throw around after other people tried to tell you that CSZ is not bad. Oh, and there were few temper tantrums.
Though I remember your childish attempt to tick me off, telling me that I hate Sub-Zero because he defeated Sektor. That was quite stupid on your part, no matter how mature you try to pose yourself.


I admitted that I was wrong. Most likely you didn't noticed it. =)


So, looks like humanity aspect for you consist in appearance only?
I mean, tell me, if Cyber Sub-Zero have free will and his own personality, than what exactly different about him aside from moveset (just partially) and appearance? I don't expect coherent and realistic answer, but just try to do it, I'll wait.
Hint: your perception that cyborgs couldn't be interesting and have emotive personalities doesn't count. It was proven in MK9 that CSZ still have emotions.

The only thing that he couldn't do - is to change his appearance. But in the end it never stopped Midway / NRS from changing cyborg appearance almost in the each game, sometimes without explanation at all. So this argument is kind of flying out of the window too.

For one thing, while he's a cyborg, he's no longer a Cryomancer.

You see, the Automation process was confirmed in Deception to remove the character's biological powers and replace them with technologically derived imitations - because their biology itself is largely replaced, obviously.

The example given in that game was that Cyber-Smoke's smoke abilites were gone, instead being simulated by the ability to release clouds of nanobots which originally doubled as his mechanical immune system and repaired battle damage, but would later become corrupted and consume/transform his entire body into a nano-swarm. We also see this in the difference in MK9 between the way Sektor's teleports look: as a human, a wormhole of magic green light. As a cyborg, computer code instead.

In the old timeline, Sub-Zero's abilities were integral to both his use of the Lin Kuei Dragon Medallion and the Cryomancer Ancestral Armor.

Cyber Sub-Zero, on the other hand, freezes things via a refrigeration device in his chest. (I guess he has little Iron Man-style emitters in his hands too...)
Sektor seems to want the medallion in both timelines, so I'm guessing that thing can amplify any powers, even technology, somehow (not that magic amplifying science makes any sense, but whatever)...but I bet not possessing the magic of Cryomancy would pose a bit of a problem when trying to wear magic psychic armor that makes you a better fighter, but only works for Cryomancers...not that he can wear armor when his body is fuckin' made of armor anyway.

701 is right about the cryomancery, unless retcons will fuck that fact up.

Maybe - just maybe - Raiden was actually schizophrenic for the whole time and only imagined all the mental messages for this alternate time line. Don't rule that option out. These are the last thoughts of Liu Kang.

Maybe the Dragon Medallion would be able to revive the cryomancy in Subbie. Or the many artifacts found at the Cryomancers Tomb, like the armour he found. I'd find that a reasonable explanation.

So?
As long as he can freeze things it really has no effect on his abilities. And it doesn't matter in general where they came from.

Gameplay-wise CSZ had self-freeze move, slide and freeze projectile - practically the same things that regular Sub-Zero had. I bet if not for presence of two cryomancers in one game, CSZ could have ended up with Ice Clone or Sub-Zero could have had Self-Freeze.

Even if it affect his storyline in the future, if we assume that Kuai Liang stays as a cyborg for the next game or at least part of it, then I don't see how it can affect his personality. It could affect his storyline though, and most likely will, but considering that NRS most likely will not recreat his story from previous timeline (as some people believe, for whatever unexplainable reason) this change equals to nothing siginificant in the picture as a whole.

Changes will happen, and what the source of this changes is insignificant, as long as the story (quality) justifies it.

You think too highly of NRS to come up with something new for Sub-Zero. When they announced somebody will become cyborg,everybody pointed at Sub-Zero and in the end,that happened. They are predictable and unoriginal,plus they butchered one of the only characters who had the deepest and most developed storylines in the series. I get it,this is reboot etc.,but I doubt they can come up with better ideas than they did for Kuai Liang in old timeline.

The fundamental thing is you have some faith in their writing skills,which some of us don't(especially after MK9; I agree,some characters were good portrayed,but Stryker shined in one chapter of his,and then disappeared like the rest of Chapter-bound characters ). If I were sure,that they can come up with something interesting and refreshing and at the same time not fucking up the character,then I would support Cyber Sub-Zero. But I am NOT,ESPECIALLY since Hector Sanchez said in one of the interviews that Cyber Subbie will probably not appear again. So what is the fucking point of this whole Sub's transformation process?

Again,I might be wrong,but if NRS were creative as they were like during MK DA,then they wouldn't AT LEAST go back to MK1-3 time to reboot it,but continue story after Armageddon. And they had all the freedom they want,just make classic characters survive Armageddon and there is your new MK9. Why fuck up something that was good?

I agree with you,Sumac,that MK9 happened only during one game and maybe some more games should give us more clearer picture on the matter.Until next game,it is pointless to argue with you about this topic. We will see,IF Cyber Sub-Zero makes it for next game,and IF he does,will he become as interesting as old timeline human Sub-Zero. Which I sincerely doubt will happen.

We presume they won't repeat things that were tied up, or disliked, but the popular parts of the story and loose ends that never got resolved are fair game for a revisit.

And in fiction, magic artifacts that psychically talk to people or possess them and make them do things almost always have their own agenda. We never found out what the Cryo-Armor was meant for, what it or the cryomancers who created it wanted. Thus, it will almost certainly return one day. If Sub can't wear it, they'll have to stick it on Frost instead and if her character steals any more of Sub-Zero's shit, people will never learn to like her.

Besides, you said it doesn't affect his personality, but where his powers came from IS a part of Kuai's mental-identity, it's been a character motivation for him, he cares about knowing, exploring, and honoring his family's past. He's a fan of history and legacy, that's an established character trait.