I want to discuss humanity for a second as well, if we will. Since RedSumac seems to think that just having free will gives you humanity.

I would say humanity has a few aspects.

First of all. humans can reproduce, as well as any living being. Hell if Sub-Zero were turned into a polar bear it probably wouldn't have been as bad because he can still carry on his bloodline, and his kid could be polar zero.lol

Next on my list for humanity is for people to view you as that, a human. Others would have to view you as a human. I've brought up the argument before, but if a cyborg, who pretty much looks like a robot, came walking down the street. Would you talk to him like any other normal human being? Would you treat him the same, or would he ultimately end up an object to you? I realize that Sumac is arguing that I just can't view robots as humans, and he's right I can't. I don't think that anyone with a sound mind would view a cyborg as a normal human though. He would essentially be viewed as a monster, which is absolutely horrible.

The last point would be, you can do everything as a robot that you could do as a human. As a human, there is virtually no way that someone is going to hack into you and make you a slave. That's not a freedom Sub-Zero has. Also a normal human could go eat, go swimming, go out in public and be viewed as normal in general. Those are just general examples too guys, I don't expect Subz to go swimming.lol. He could fight along his comrades without being viewed as a machine. I mean come on he was even viewed as a monster by Smoke, you could tell by Smoke's reaction. They all felt sorry for him, I believe it's because they knew he would never be the same again.

Humanity has a lot of aspects that simple minded people don't want to look into. People shouldn't view having a personality as having humanity, because it's not the same thing. Sub-Zero's fight against Sektor in the old timeline was showing that flesh, blood, freedom, friends, HUMANITY were all worth more than being turned into an enslaved machine who's soul purpose is to serve the Lin Kuei and be a mechanical assassin.

So there you go RedSumac. There's my "coherent and realistic" answer. See what I did there? Way to keep it classy again. You honestly cannot argue without throwing out insults, it's funny really. Also, if you don't remember right, I told you I was intentionally trying to piss you off when I said "You hate Sub-Zero because he beat Sektor." I admitted that a long time ago. It was childish, but you act like a child most of the time. I just figured I should get on your level. Also, yes you did insult my english, and then ended up getting a thread closed because of the war. So, honestly, if you respond to me again, I'm just not going to answer. Jaded and Espio are right. There's no need for this to turn into a flame war. I can discuss this without insults, let's see if you can.

Sorry double post here.

Everyone presumes that things are not going to get repeated, they will though. Like NoobSmoke said, as soon as they said that someone who wasn't a cyborg before might be now, We all knew it was Sub-Zero. Honestly though, a lot of us didn't think they were dumb enough to go through with that. It's not original, it's swapping one character out with another. If they wanted to be original they would have let both escape and see where it went from there.

No, people don't think that Sub-Zero's path will stay the exact same. We expect parts of it to remain coherent though. The whole cryomancer, and armour heritage is totally f***ed now. That could just have been a footnote in his new story to let us know they didn't completely forget the past. It won't be now though.

Also though, the same people who argue that the story wasn't going to stay the same, often bring up old stories to place on other characters.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen "Sub-Zero can be Noob's slave, it would be sooo great." or "Noob can be the Elder Gods champion this time." That's right the same people who want change just place old story's onto new characters. That's all the cyber plot is this time. It's the first half of Smoke's story placed on sub-zero. Seriously why would the elder gods even spit in the direction of Noob? He murdered gods didn't he? They would most likely let him get ripped apart by the soulnado.

I'm just saying if people want change so much, then don't copy/paste story's onto other characters.

Despite the backlash NRS has been getting for making Kuai Liang a cyborg, I don't think they are going to make him human in the next game. I mean in the old timeline, none of the cyborgs removed their cybernetics and turned "back" to humans, and I really don't see how it would be possible (or honestly worth it) to do in this timeline. Now I realize what I'm about to see has NOTHING to do with the MK games itself, but if any of you have watched MK Legacy episodes, if it's anything like how the Lin Kuei created Cyrax and Sektor by pretty much cutting off their torsos and limbs and transferring oil in the place of blood in their bodies, there is no way you can make somebody "go back" to a human once a cyborg.

So if we don't want old stories put in place of new characters, then make it all different I say. Kuai Liang was a good guy in the first timeline? Now as a cyborg under Quan Chi's control, he will be a bad guy UNTIL he is out of Quan Chi's control. Make the amulet that Quan has even more powerful than in the previous timeline, that way Quan will still have control over people like Scorpion, Noob, and Quan's new sidekicks Jade, Smoke, and Kuai Liang. I don't know, there is a fight between a zombie Liu Kang (Ok I lied about making all the stories different, but only because YOU ALL KNOW this is gonna happen again in the new timeline, that's why Raiden teleported his body along with taking along Cage and Sonya.) Anyway, so zombie Liu Kang and Quan Chi duke it out while Raiden and Shinnok fight, and Kang defeats Quan Chi, then loses the amulet therefore the "slaves" of Quan are no longer serving him.

MK Legacy was created ex post facto from the original canon and as with most adaptations, they take liberties with the source material and without the main canon corroborating such events, it doesn't work on the current canon and based on the previous canon all indications point to them keeping their arms, torsos, faces etc.

Look at Deadly Alliance Cyrax's alternate costume for confirmation.

http://www.mortalkombatwarehouse.com/mkda/cyrax/

You can clearly see his arms and torso are intact as well as his face. I'd also assert that it's reasonable to deduce that the rest of his body would retain the humanoid elements as well, such as his legs and other regions of his body. He's still wired up, but I can only presume that's to show he can still do his specials without it looking totally silly(this part is speculation).

Unnecessary. We'll have a Zombie Liu Kang for the same reason we currently have Zombie Kitana, Zombie Kung Lao, Zombie Nightwolf, Zombie Cyber-Sub (zombie cyborg ninja? Why not pile "pirate" and "cowboy" on as well at that point? Riding a dinosaur while wearing a jetpack couldn't hurt either, lol...) etc.
Liu died during the invasion. Quan Chi has his soul.

I'm not exactly against recreation of some parts of Sub-Zero's story, but I am against complete rehashing of it. It's a new timeline - it should tell new stories. For old ones I have old games.


It would be interesting to see people general reaction, IF CSZ existence wasn't leaked almost a month before the game release, alongside with script and renders.
I don't see nothing bad about this. It was an experiment. Non-trivial and interesting. Personally I support such things, because they could give interesting inside and potential for characters. Besides, if it would be reverted back in the next game, all haters would be pacified and the issue will be no more. So, what's the big deal if Sub-Zero was turned into cyborg for the one game? It's not like there wasn't human Sub-Zero in the game. I don't see big deal about it.


Because they wanted to do something new and tell more or less coherent story about LIFE and DEATH during the war of the worlds. Something that was never prevalent in the previous games, aside from MKD and even then it was fucked up by immediate ressurection of everyone who was killed.
If MK9 was RPG, than this story would be brilliant. Sadly, since it's a fighting game in which roster depends not on the story, but on the characters popularity, we know that most of the killed characters would be ressurected one way or the other. So all this drama was for nothing. But I applaud NRS desire for doing something like that, since I don't think any fighting game had something like that before. I hope that in the next game they continue this RPG-like approach to the story.


I don't think that they would majorly revisit previous parts of the story. Especially when it come to such insignificant things as "Cryo-Armor" and what not. Even if they do, I believe those things would be rewritten, so they importance to the old timeline will be lost.


To boost Sub-Zero's power and make him "Kooler" for his fans. Hell, in MKA
they make him an ice god in the ending.
My point is, it was never a major thing - just another upgarde for his powers like Dragon Medallion in MKDA.


I don't see why he should stop caring about where he came from, just because he is not human-cryomant anymore. He still have the same personality.
And I don't see that he specially cared about his ancestry. He stumbled on the Cryomancers shrine solely by accident. He didn't knew nothing about them before this.
Besides, he honored his brother before, but it's quite different thing from searching about ancestry.


LOL. This was never a major factor in MK so far. Besides, it's Sub-Zero we talking about. If anything, you of all people should, know that he is a disciplined warrior, not Casanova.
I believe, if he would like to make a descendant for his legacy, than he will just find pupil for that.


As I said before, it's you personal problem.
And the way you described it sounds like stupid xenofobia - not a thing for a smart people.
If people know that said Cyborg is the good guy and he will give his live to protect them, they most likely wouldn't afraid of him and treat him like a comrade and essentially human being. That is my personal belief, if you want.


And once again you forget that Sub-Zero is disciplined skilled warrior. He is not your casual human, who couldn't live without fat food, sex and drink. It looks like you think to little about your favorite character. Ha-ha.
Anyway, such transformation could be a disaster for simple human, since he really will be cut off form everything that he could do as human being.
However for Sub-Zero it would a problem, but eventually I believe he would
cope with it and make the best out of the worst. Yes, I have high opinion of your favorite characters and believe that he could overcome even such thing.
So, in the end I don't see that this transformation will have serious effect on the Kuai Liang.

In the end I vehemently believe that humanity is not about being human. Humanity is something that is inside you. Inside your heart. History knows many examples, when supposedly human beings were downright inhuman, so there is no reason for me to believe, that good human will not stay good being, if he ends up as non-human being.


Said fight in the new timeline could show that CSZ is more powerful because he has his soul and "humanity". Hence he is stronger that Sektor, who refused being human in all possible meanings.


While your arguments were downright superficial, I took my time to answer
them all without a single insult. So, yes, I stay classy. You're not. As always.


You know, for someone who don't want create a flame war, you awfully sounds like you practically beg me to start it. Not that unexpected from a child who throws temper tantrums left and right. Don't worry, I handled such
provocations in the past and will handle it again.


Way to go, "Postradamus". Ha-ha.
It was original because, Smoke didn't have nothing before being turned into
cyborg. Sub-Zero had personality and his transformation was an interesting
opportunity to see a character form different angle. A character excursion if you want.


The whole Cryomancer and all heritage thing weren't needed in the first place. It was quite random and the only thing it served is to boost Sub-Zero's power level yet again. I guess Sub-Zero's fanboys are OK with it for understandable reason, but from the story perspective there could be more interesting ideas than just create race of people who can manipulate cold.


Seriously, why Elder Gods would look at the Scorpion, who for the most of his existence was a pawn of their arhnemesis Quan Chi? And Scorpion actually took part in the Shinnok's attack on the Elder Gods during MK4. So, if anything they had more reasons to hate him, rather than Bi-Han. Especially given, that gods Bi-Han killed autoressurected after some time and that was not the case with Elders.

@ RedSumac

I'm sorry, I tried not to respond, but I have too.

You are just completely missing what Sub-Zero's character is about in my opinion.

In fact nearly everything that you post it sounds like you just want to turn him into your creation or something.

Also you just ignore my points. I said exactly what the battle meant the first time between Sub-Zero and Sektor and you just come back with "So he can still fight for humanity this time", when I already told you why he's not human anymore, and why it won't mean as much. You ignore the facts saying Sub-Zero still has soul and humanity. Does Sektor not? I mean they both have personalities, which seems to be what your basing your argument off of. Just because he has a personality and isn't controlled by someone doesn't mean he is human.

Also you just ignore other basic arguments I make such as reproduction. I'm sorry but that is an important part. Since the Sub-Zero legacy has carried on for generations, you would think it would be important for him to want to carry that on. I mean isn't he like the sixth or seventh Sub-Zero in his family. You can't just give that to someone who you mentor. It's in his blood, you can't teach cryomancy. He and frost were cryomancer's which shows you can't teach ice powers to someone, it has to be in you.

Also your argument that said "If i knew he was a good guy I would treat him the same." Yeah f**king right. He can never communicate with a human being the same again. I'm sorry that definitely is YOUR own personal belief. If anyone and I mean anyone saw a cyborg walking down the street, they would either think it's a robot who has no emotions, or they would think someone was controlling the cyborg from a distance. No sane, normal person would view a cyborg as a normal human being, stop trying to make it out like they would.

Also, just so you know all or your counter arguments were pretty much the same there Smart guy. You are basically saying Sub-Zero can overcome because he's a strong warrior, I don't give a damn who you are if you have your blood and guts replaced with oil and you can't be viewed as a human. Something will die inside of you.

You basically make these points.

-Reproduction wasn't important before, why should it be now? Well, if there is ever going to be an end for Kuai Liang's storyline, it definitely would be thinking about carrying on the Sub-Zero legacy.

-Then you say Cryomancy isn't important and isn't needed. That's it. You just damn well don't care about Sub-Zero at all That was pretty much imporant for the whole last part of his character growth. IT IS PART OF HIM, whether you like it or disagree with it. That's part of his character.

-The point you make about the cyber initiative being put on Sub-Zero rather than Smoke shows how little sense you have."It's original because Sub-Zero already had a story", that doesn't make something original. That makes them dumbasses for taking an already developed story and replacing it with another less popular character's story. Nothing original about it. It's still smoke's story on another character.

- Then you argue the gods should hate Scorpion more than Bi-han. Are you freaking kidding me? Scorpion never did anything directly to the god's besides being Quan's little servant b**ch. Bi-han directly tried to kill gods. They should throw him in hell forever, they shouldn't at all think about saving him in any way, shape, or form.

I think you piss me off so bad because you come with arguments that in your head sound smart, and you even post things that sound like you think you're some MK genius or something. You are no smarter than anyone here though. Then you make your arguments out to be some fool proof argument, but when it comes down to it they aren't. You basically in all of your arguments to everyone say" Sub-Zero's cryomancy doesn't matter." Even though that's a huge part of what he was about in the old timeline. You then try to debunk all of my arguments by saying "He's strong warrior, he overcome anything." That's literally what you sound like. Ignoring the fact that he has emotions just like any of the cast. I just really need to say you're not as smart as you think you are. I've tried to get that across to you, but you just keep ignoring it. I'm by no means saying you're dumb, but I think anyone can tell by reading your posts that you think you are super smart. You're not though, so stop acting like your better than everyone else here.

LOL.
Let me guess, after I provided arguments and without insults, you was so dumbstruck by my kindness that lost your cool?

On a serious note, if you feel like you can't provide anything of a substance then you could not to answer me. I'll understand.


For me it looks like I have more knowledge about storyline as a whole and interpret it from postition of general acceptance towards new ideas and indifference towards specific characters, while you stuck with the mindset of Sub-Zero fanatic, who sees everything from perspective where Sub-Zero is the greatest creation ever, his story is absolute and never should be subjected to any changes and in general he is focus of everything in MK.

To sum this up - it's you who sees Sub-Zero as your own character (as typical for character specific fans), which eventually makes some of your arguments seems quite questionable.


Oh my...
I thought I clearly put it several times already, but no. You still don't get it. Not surprising, but really...

When I speak about humanity I don't mean "soul" and "personality". I meant something else entirely - emotions, feelings, humanity combined (as in "having good human qualities, being merciful and kind" not in literally "being human"). That what I meant when I said that battle against CSZ and Sektor still will could be a battle between "human" and "inhuman" beings. Kuai Liang didn't discard his "human" qualities even if he is not human anymore, while Sektor did. That what makes CSZ special and stronger, when compared to any other Lin Kuei machine.
Now, I hope I gave clarity explanation. If you unable to understand it yet again, I will not explain it again and maybe will try something more fruitfull, like talking to wall bricks.


It would be valid for the old timeline, where Sub-Zero indeed was a heir for the cryomancers family. However in the new timeline he, alongside his brother, were kidnapped from their parents. It was never mentioned that his father was a cryomancer and worked for Lin Kuei in the new timeline. Thus, until proved otherwise, its fully possible that Kuai Liang and Bi-Han are not heirs of long cryomancers linage, but random genetic manifestiation of their legacy without any previous cryomancers in their family in the new timeline.
To give you short answer - in the new timeline reproduction maybe not a factor for Sub-Zero.


No sane normal human will treat they friend and ally with hostility. Your belief that people must inevitably hate someone who is different from them, only because he looks different, seemingly wired into you inner xenofobia and inability to accept beings that not corresponds to the some standards of yours.


I didn't saw any problems when CSZ communicated with other earth warriors in MK9. Also, I didn't saw any problems betweeen Cyrax and other members of Special Forces. Cue what I wrote before.


If you are weak, then yes it will affect you considerably to the point of breaking down and insanity. However I firmly believe that Kuai Liang is stronger than that, hence he honorably could stand this test and eventually make the best out of this situation.

That is actually funny - it's should be you crying around every the corner about Sub-Zero's strength, but for whatever reason it looks like it is me, who defend Sub-Zero's ability to withstand troubles, while you try to undermine it, making Kuai Liang look like a regular weak human being. Weird.


Bi-Han and Kuai Liang are not the only cryomancers in the world. If anything the series could introduce new cryomancer from another family, so all this talk about reproduction is fruitless. At least until developers will not give clear confirmation about cryomacers status in the new timeline.


I just can see you throwing pan into the monitor screaming: "YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT MY SUB-ZERO, FUCKER!!". Sorry, I'll take some time to quell laughter.

Some time later...

Ok, where was I? Oh...

Nope. It was pretty much another upgarde for him and some not really neccesary complication to his story. What was so special about the whole cryomancers deal? Yeah, Sub honored his ancestors. Cool. So, what it brought to the table?

Ok, he is a descendant of the some long extinguished race of cryomancers from Outworld. But what after that? Actually Sub-Zeros were much more special, when they were humans, who taught themselves to control ice instead being born with that ability. Now they just descendants of another alien race...Not really special, nor for character, neither for MK mythology as a whole. It looks like another Superman-style story...
I wonder, if that whole Cryomancers angle was added just to somehow explain Frost existence...


Wait...you said that Sub-Zero had developed story...but in MK9 he hadn't anything. He couldn't technically had any of his recent achievements just because they didn't happened yet, since MK9 was set in MK1-MK3, long before his Lin Kuei leadership and cryomancers stuff.

So continuing from this point there were nothing to replace in MK9 since those things didn't happened in the new timeline. Nothing existed yet to be reaplaced.

And since Smoke wasn't transformed into cyborg, but Sub-Zero was, it makes all this story Sub-Zero's story, by virtue of being...well...Sub-Zero's story, not Smoke's in this particular game. Quite a simple logic.
If I had any affinity to use image memes, I probably would have used classic "U MAD" meme. Somehow I feel it could be appropriate for you. =)


Just how fast things fly out of your head? I just wonder...
Scorpion participated in the war between Elder Gods and their allies against Shinnok forces on the side of Shinnok in MK4. In MK4 I repeat, so this time it most likely will not go unnoticed.

Maybe he didn't killed any of Elder Gods personally, but still he was fighting for the side of their enemy, while Bi-Han fought some elemental gods and never, until his transformation in Noob Saibot tried to destroy Elders directly. Oh, and he actually saved realms from Shinnok's invasion later, but of course you very conveniently forgot about that.


Yet, unlike rest (most) of the cast he was tought to tame his emotions and stay cool no matter what. You overestimate how emotional he is, by thinking of him as practically emo.


You know...in that last paragraph you practically sounded as Wheatley from the Portal 2. Especially when he screamed "I'm not a moron!!".

@RedSumac
UHHHH! I can't argue with you anymore.

You're not right.

I'll simply put it like this.

In your first argument about why Sub-Zero being the cyborg was original. You said that it was original because Sub-Zero already had a story and Smoke didn't when he became a cyborg.

I then said that should be a reason that they shouldn't have touched him, and made them dumbasses for doing so.

You then turned around and said. His story didn't exist in this new timeline yet so it didn't matter if they turned him cyborg, and it's original for doing so.

So which is it? Was it original because Subz already had a story, or it didn't matter because he didn't have a story yet? Your arguments contradict themselves so many times it's not even funny.

I'm not a xenophobe, or anything of the such either as you keep trying to tell everyone in here I am. I simply look at it from a humanistic standpoint. I'm not looking at how the people around him see him (Smoke, Cage, Sonya, Raiden). I'm looking at people who haven't met him. Anyone who hasn't met Subz and knows what happened then they would probably think he is some kind of Frankenstein experiment gone wrong. No normal human being would view him as another human being.

Also, your constant throwing out of the old timeline doesn't make it valid. If they went the route your going then they would just look like even bigger idiots. Retconning things Raiden didn't even mess with is why this current story sucks as bad as it does. You assume they can just act like cryomancy doesn't exist and poof it's gone. That's what you want to happen, but that's where the story will majorly get f**ked, I say that like it's not already.

Also you say I overestimate his emotions. No, I don't. You definitely are underestimating them. He left the Lin Kuei because they were going to make him EMOTIONLESS. I don't make him out to be some guy who cry's all the time. Hell,no he's not emo. He does have feelings though. He cared about his brother, he cared about Smoke, he cared about the Lin Kuei enough to go back. He cares, and he cared about his heritage, which you so simply want to throw out.

You know, I could point out piece by piece of everything wrong with your arguments, but honestly it's tiresome. You come across looking like a child with all of the insults you throw out, and it's really not worth talking to someone like that at all.

In all of your arguments you have:

Insulted my english
called me a xenophobe
Said I was dumbstruck by your kindness.lol
Quoted insults:
"On a serious note, if you can't provide anything of substance then you could not answer to me."

"I thought I clearly put it several times already but no. You still don't get it, Not surprising,"

So damn condescending. Really.

That's not even all of the insults either, and it's just one post from you.lol.

I question now whether your a troll. Which I'm starting to think you are. I wish you could respond not coming off looking like a childish, full of himself, pompous, all knowing jackass, but you can't and you have proved it time and time again.

As much as you will probably piss me off with yet more insults in your next post, I must avoid posting to you because it's like arguing with a wall. You throw out the same arguments with just more insults, never really bringing anything new to your argument besides.

I'm right, I'm always right, I will always be right, even when I'm dead, and you will always be wrong. That's what you sound like talking to me, and pretty much anyone else in this thread. You're just coming across a thickheaded, insulting prick. Plain and simple. Ugh, you have singlehandedly ruined another thread.

That's clearly not the case. Scar may come off as overenthusiastic and fanboyish about his favorite character, but I do have to agree with him that when you talk on this subject, you often get things wrong and even moreso have a tendency to disregard anything or claim it unimportant to the story and make up excuses why not to pay attention to it or expect it to return, just because you personally did not pay attention to, care about, or outright disliked that particular plot point.

For example, your claim that the Cryo-Armor is irrelevant because it was just a story excuse to give him a different costume is absurd A) because the characters change costumes every game ANYWAY and B) you're ignoring the fact that the armor was established to have a mind of its own which is not an insignificant thing. Any item that communicates telepathically with or exercises mental control over a character IS important.
Kenshi and Ashrah's swords, for example. The only difference is Kenshi and Ashrah were introduced already possessing those items so they were part of their characters from the start.

Suppose Ashrah were to be reintroduced in the rebootverse BEFORE she found Datusha, when she was still one of Quan's slave girls? Would she stay that way? Should we expect her to find the kriss again and begin down the same path of crazed demon/vampire slaying? Or should we perhaps expect a completely different character like Sareena to acquire the kriss in this timeline instead? Or would you say, like you have about the Cryo-Armor, that the kriss doesn't need to ever show up in Mortal Kombat again?



There's one problem with that:

Unlike Cyrax and Cyber-Sub before Jax set his mind free, who act robotic and programmed like they're supposed to, Sektor DOES have emotions and motives of his own in the reboot, for some weird, ungiven reason.



The images in Raiden's visions suggest that despite the great lengths they went to to retcon the holy hell out of the original trilogy, that Deadly Alliance, Deception, and Armageddon still would've happened the way we saw, if it weren't for Raiden changing history.

Besides, they haven't changed any characters' origin stories drastically. The new bio doesn't say his father wasn't the Lin Kuei member who kidnapped him. It doesn't mention one way or the other.

And you can't go by the animated video on Youtube that showed both his parents weeping as a ninja abducted the kids. Kenshi's showed his eyes being ripped out, and he still has eyes under his blindfold in the game, you can see them in his battle damage. So those aren't canon.



That's outright untrue. They were always established to be born with the ability, even before the Cryomancers. As established in Mythologies, the game that gave their origin story, Lin Kuei recruit members by abducting children with powers, and that includes the Sub-Zeros. It's just that in Mythologies, they were abducted by their own father and the powers run in the family.

The implication at that time was that the MK universe has something similar to Marvel's mutants - sometimes, people are just born with powers. And that every member of the Lin Kuei was one of these.
Also, regarding the discussion about reproduction/passing on the legacy, if they ever do make a game that jumps forward in time and covers "the next generation of fighters" as Tekken and now Soul Calibur have (which is admittedly unlikely, they'll probably just reboot again and again and again instead and feed on a vicious cycle of nostalgia forever), since "there will never be an MK without Scorpion and Sub-Zero", the logical thing to do is have a new Sub-Zero who is Kuai's son, since the name is already established to be a family hand-me-down anyway.

Ha-ha-ha...By the same margin I could say that you are wrong!!
But I never failed to offer some arguments to support my position before making sauch statements. And actually I've never made such general statements. It would disrepectful towards my opponent.


Geee...You confused yourself it seems.
I'll try to put it as simple as possible.
I said that Sub-Zero didn't have story like what he had in the MK1-MKA. Thus he lost nothing from being turned into cyborg in MK9. It doesn't matter because he has nothing of that development that he received in the past games. And yes, I consider it to be an original approach to his character in that particular timeline, since nothing like that had happened with him in the past.


Mistake 1: I am not trying to tell everyone that you are xenofobe. I pointing out obvious flaw in your logic and make an assumption why such flaw is possible in the first place. No need to make false charges.


Mistake 2: from humanistic perspective you obliged to treat him no different from another human being since CSZ is technically human encased in mechanical armor with several upgardes. Otherwise, it is not a humanistic standpoint and once again reeks of xenofobia and distrust.


Well, if every "normal" human being in your dimension is xenofobe, than so be it. It's couldn't be helped, I'm afraid.
Though I personally think that normal human being will try to understand situation before making assumptions about who or what in front of him.


It is valid, since nothing that happened in the old timeline have real effect on the new one - cue multiple retcons in the MK9. It is a new timeline. So nothing that happened in MK4-MKA does matter until the next game or possibly never.


About "story sucks" - that's just like your opinion.


Most likely he didn't want to turn into cyborg because it would stripped him out of free will. While it is connected to the emotions issue, it still quite a different thing from "escape because he didn't want to become emotionless".


I never said that he doesn't have them. I said that he can control them much better than your average human being.


I have feeling that you just can't do it. C'est La Vie.


Humor is not your forte, I guess.


Didn't you just said that I am wrong by default in the very begining of your own post? Double standards, eh?


I wish you could respond without throwing tantrums and childish arguments, but alas.


Well, you're not the epitome of originality either. I am just answering "arguments" what I was presented with. Since you practically say the same thing over and over, I don't have much choice, but to restate what I already said over and over again. LOL.

Play nicely or y'all be gettin' an ass whoopin'.

Take it to PM if you must.

If we're going to use terms like Xenophobia, they should be used appropriately, it is fear or hatred of foreigners...I don't understand how this applies to CSZ.

Scar, Red, oh you guys... Always good for putting up a show.
Nice to see someone else being crazy on these forums. ;P

Let's talk Cyber Subbie instead of who's opinion is right or wrong, okay?

I can't remember if this has already been talked about, but what special moves would you have given Cyber Subbie and which would you keep for him?

For once, the Ice Bombs were rather dull and that the freeze effect only work some of the times isn't optimal, so I would get rid of that. Instead I would replace it with something like the Ice Nugget from MKvsDCU or some other form of the falling ice move he had in MK3.
I would also change his teleport move to look like the one in MKvsDCU instead of copying another of Cyrax's moves. Let Cyber Subbie keep the Dive Kick and instead give Sonya the Bicycle Kick, both upwards and downwards from MKvsDCU.

Would I be wrong if I said the following?:

Tundra never existed.Sub-Zero died.He turned into Noob-Saibot.Lin-Kuei still found him.Automated him. Now his name is...
Noob-SaiBORG!!!!!!

Yes, very wrong.

Lol. Didn't mean for it to be a show, but it certainly did escalate into that didn't it?

I'm done arguing though, no point in it. So I guess the shows over.lol.

The way I see MK story doesn't mean that I don't know some things. I don't care about some things. It is two different matters. Yes, I claim that I don't see importance in many things because just that - I don't see nothing important about them. It is not because I dislike them, but because I presume that they are disconnected, unneeded and in general being a dead weight to the storyline, without much of chance to receive (any siginificant) development in the future.

My personal phylosophy regarding story is: "if you don't have any idea how to use something in storyline, than better not to introduce it all, rather then later have tonnes of loose ends". I know that some of those loose ends could be resolved later, but we talk about games which being released only each two-three years. So, I think in this case, every detail in the story must work to make storyline better as a whole. There is simply no place to some "blurry stuff" that may be or may be not used in the future.

Talking about that particular "armor" - it would be relevant if it played more significant role in something...anything. As of now - it's just a different costume with apparently not properly explained "mind of its own". It could have been significant, but it was never elaborated upon, nor played any part in any other stories (practically like Sub-Zero himself) or even the next game.


The thing we don't what will stay true in the new timeline. They could retcon that Ashrah is fanatical demon slayer on her own, without need of any sword, for example. So, such arguments don't have substance to them, at least for now. If Asrah would be reintroduced in MK, we would have something to talk about.


Once again: as I see "humanity" as is not about having emotions. It's about "having good human qualities, being merciful and kind" not in literally "being human". I said before - there were tonnes of humans in MK who were downright inhuman.


Well, for now I go with the theory that Sub-Zero's family was retconned, until stated otherwise. I don't see any rational reason why it wouldn't be mentioned that Sub-Zero's are descendants of the long lineage of warriors. Or at least that title "Sub-Zero" is not exclusive to the brothers. In MK9 it looked like only Bi-Han was "Sub-Zero" before and Kuai Liang was actually the first who decided to take it as his own name.
And by the way - Mileena says "Hi".


Ok, you got me there. I forgot about the part that they were born with special abilities. Still I think it was much better to have Sub-Zero's as human-anomalies rather than having them as descendants of some "lost race from another world". I am not fond of such stories and the whole Cryomancy angle looked pretty "out of left field" to me.


Well, two things:
First, I doubt that NRS would reboot MK again and again. I don't think there would be radical changes in the roster, since they already have many playable characters with really unique abilities this time and good engine, however it doesn't mean that they would not move story forward. There is no reason not to do that and nostalgia could be helpful only for a short amount of time. Self-repetition lead to decline and low profit and nobody wants it.

Second, Soul Calibur "jump forward" was pretty much cheap trick to
artificailly increase interest in the series. They didn't introduce many new characters and most of the newcomers are actually clones of the past characters save for a few really new chars. Besides, when it goes to the story quality SC5 apparently is as good as MKA - there is only story mode about few characters and characters in arcade mode don't have personal endings, nor ingame biographies. So all this "time skip" was essentially for nothing.


- new teleport;
- some unique ice projectiles, but not ice nugget - it is stupid special move, IMO;


You're right. You were done. =)

So your whole argument about why Sub-Zero and Sektor can still have as good a rivalry as the "pure flesh vs. artificial enhancements" one in the old timeline is just "good vs. evil"? Seriously?

That's weak, sir. Very, very weak. Every rivalry in MK is good vs. evil, what makes two robots doing it special?



She's still a clone made from Kitana/Tarkatan blood, by Shang Tsung, for Shao Kahn, to replace Kitana with a more loyal daughter. The timing of Mileena's introduction has changed, which only prevents Kitana from fighting side by side with her, thinking her a twin sister. The change also alters personalities and character dynamics - things which weren't actually written down in MK2, but her written history is otherwise the same.

Much of your arguments are predicated on a belief that the reboot is a deus ex machina to change character's backgrounds and biographies, but the instances where that ACTUALLY HAPPENED in MK9 can be counted on one hand, and most of them are even matters of interpretation, where things weren't necessarily canon, we just assumed them to be and MK9 went against the assumption.
Also, it's naive to believe they won't reboot/remake again in another 15-20 years when these versions of the characters have lasted as long as the ones in Armageddon and they start running out of things to do with them. They probably just won't do time travel to keep the same "universe" next time, they'll go for a retelling of MK1 in a different art/genre style instead.

Not exactly.
I already tried to explain this...how much times? 2-3? It looks like 23 for me, but OK.
It's not just about "good vs evil" - it's about man who rejected his humanity and become machine at heart vs man who didn't reject his human-like qualities. Something like that. It is "good vs evil" however it is more.


Keywords: the timing have changed...and many stuff associated with it. While technically the outcome is almost the same, aside from the fact that Mileena have different personality and didn't die, origin have been changed in its execution and seriously affected storyline, not only of Kitana and Millena, but practically everyone else. I'd say it's a major origin / timeline change. Even more major actually, than Sub-Zero's origin (if it was changed), which didn't play major role until MKM / MK4 and didn't affect anyone aside from Sub-Zeros.


Considering total number of minor and major changes, I think it's a fair game. Besides, I don't live by false belief that NRS will leave storyline as is. They already prooved many times, that they wll not hesitate to mess with it. So, I expect any kind of changes in the future, reasonable or not.


Maybe, maybe not. But I think its naive to believe that NRS will make one reboot after the other. And what will happen in the next decade...well, who knows.

I didn't feel like creating another Sub-Zero thread so I'd like to put this here, just because the subject at hand has been discussed here before.

I was thinking about the consistency in naming Bi-Han and Kuai Liang again, a case we discussed about earlier with RE701 and Chrome. The consistency between the names of the brothers didn't clear up yet and I'd like to think that the MK team has put coherence on this one just as well.

We know that Bi-Han is Kuai Liang's big brother and probably the firstborn in the family. Now, could it be that Bi-Han holds a name without using his surname because he inherited it from his father as the firstborn? See: Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un. Their father could be called Bi-Un for example.

An ng ending surname seems somewhat common in China now that I've examined it, so Liang should be their surname. "Kuai Liang" derives from "Lin Kuei" and there might not be anything else behind but that needs to be confirmed. As for Bi-Han; 'bi' means two-directional and 'han' comes likely from the Finnish word 'hän' meaning 'he/she' and sometimes 'him/her', seeing that NeRdS have used Finnish before and that Han Solo from Star Wars has the same etymology too. This translates freely Bi-Han to "two-directional him". These are my researches. Share your thoughts.

Bi and Han mean something in Chinese. I don't remember what it is, someone posted it months ago.

Honestly, man. The character is Chinese. Why would they be using Finnish? You always do that, you assume everything in the game's Finnish meaning is deliberate when it's probably a coincidence and no one at NRS likely speaks your native tongue.

Trust me, I was skeptical about this. I know that it's my native tongue thus bias could surely be a factor, and I tried to realize this. However, the language is spoken by only 5-6 million people worldwide and its only relative languages are basically Hungarian and Estonian, of which only Estonian actually reminds of Finnish. Yet still, Estonians and Finns couldn't speak together unlike e.g. Danes and Norwegians. Estonian is spoken by less than two million people. We're getting to the point: Only a minor, minor slice of NeRdS' global audience understands Finnish at all yet it's quite an easy language to examine for its consistency and rules.

[Lucas Arts' Escape from Monkey Island]
This means that NeRdS can almost at will use a language like this (retaining the words' mysterious backgrounds) to which you can delve into easily via online, because basically the whole language is accessible via the Web today. Finland is the only nation in the world where the WWW is a civil right thus far, so the most information has already been networked.
I'm not trying to advertise my nation, at least I hope so, but proving my point here. I have yet to study the Star Wars names further (they're probably already covered up) but I know by a fact that Star Wars has utilized the Finnish language a lot. The Jedi fighting style, Rautakäsi, is wholly Finnish meaning "iron hand" (rauta & käsi). Tarkata is Finnish meaning "to notice". J.R.R. Tolkien has utilized the Finnish language widely in The Lord of The Rings series. What could possibly go wrong by following those brains?
Ask yourself: Would you name a revered character of yours in the English language (e.g. Rain) or in a 'foreign' language (e.g. Kenshi)? What comes to the consistency you offered, that Bi-Han shouldn't have a Finnish name background when his name is supposed to be Chinese; Cyrax is a good example here. He comes from Botswana, Africa, yet his name backgrounds come from Arabic which is not a language in Botswana but mainly in the Middle East of Asia. 'Cyrax' is 'unstoppable' in Arabic.
In the name backgrounds, for your knowledge: Enigma > Simplicity
I'm not saying here that Finnish would be the only language used in the names of Mortal Kombat. I just know that it's been used before, 2-3 times I recall - of whopping ~150 MK names I've examined. Many other minor languages have been used as well, including Lithuanian in the name Taven (tave = you). I have been following the topics on display in MKO rather actively and I haven't seen any mention on Bi-Han's name backgrounds being Chinese other than right here from you. The name backgrounds overall have only been discussed in this topic (see: pg. 2) and the topic dedicated to the subject in MK Series General of late.
[Trivia: Sanskrit has been relatively popular in the name backgrounds.]
How do you connect Havik to Dutchmen for instance? 'Havik' is 'hawk' in Dutch (and a reference to 'havoc'). Or Tarkata to Finland? A: You don't. These name backgrounds are just cryptic for the pleasure of fans and the passion of the MK team. I explained why Bi-Han would have a Finnish reference quite well and to me that is convincing and totally plausible. There is nothing precluding this connection. You're obligated to your own opinion seeing NeRdS haven't talked about this publicly. If there is a Chinese name background in addition - fair by me. But I'd gladly see it.

See, this is exactly the sort of crap I'm talking about. You posted this in the thread on the general board for the origins/meanings of characters' names, and you tried to justify its relevance by saying Havik has bird elements in his costume design.

I want you to look at these two costumes and tell me where the "bird" parts are:


BECAUSE I DON'T FUCKING SEE ANY.

Here's something I know to be fact, on the other hand: Havik's costume designs are derived from a rejected Noob Saibot design, modified to look "asymmetrical" because that fits his "Chaos" background. Now what would either he or Noob Saibot have to do with fucking birds?

Look, maybe "Havik" IS a word in Dutch. On the other hand, maybe you got this from an online translator and it's incorrect. I'm inclined to believe some of the things you come up with are the latter because you recently tried saying "Cyrax" was Arabic and apparently, Arabic doesn't even have a letter X.

But what "Havik" means in a foreign tongue is irrelevant because that's NOT what the Name Origins thread is FOR! That thread is for informing people where Midway/NRS came up with the names from, not for listing coincidences and mistranslations. In Havik's case, they clearly just took the word "havoc" and changed the spelling because the character's concept is "a guy who creates chaos and havoc." There's no NEED to go delving into foreign languages because the intended meaning has already been made clear.

Now, if you have a name like "Baraka" or "Hotaru" where the ONLY possible origin is it comes from a foreign language, that's fine, that's an instance where you can tell they ACTUALLY INTENDED it. But what you keep doing is finding what you think are hidden SECOND meanings AFTER the first is already clear. And what that does, the reason I take issue with it, is you're misinforming people. You're like a human MKWiki, you collect information but none of it's right or useful. I can't abide it when people come here to LEARN about Mortal Kombat and someone tells them incorrect shit.

And so we're clear on what I mean by "incorrect", it's this: People want to know where MIDWAY got the names, not what YOU think they mean or found on google.

Look, it's really very simple. The Sub-Zero brothers are Chinese so the creators gave them CHINESE names. That's obvious. That's common sense. If "Bi" and "Han" also happen to be words in OTHER languages too...that's nice and all but it's A COINCIDENCE. No one wants or needs that information because it's not actually relevant to the character.

Really? Is this you? Hold your horses with the curse words, OK?
Let me make this clear, in case you have yet to realize this; I examined these name backgrounds in a public topic in Midway Boards for everyone with a big bunch of other users, sometimes arguing and other times agreeing. Here, as always, I already stated that "You're obligated to your own opinion seeing NeRdS haven't talked about this publicly." so I'm absolutely not "misinforming" anybody. You, in the contrary, are stating and exaggerating things of me that you merely assume but don't know.
The MK team has been much more passionate in coming up with the names than many other game studios. The most prominent attribute between a hawk and Havik is not the looks, but now that we're at it: the points of the hood and the forehead cover of Havik's costumes remind of a bird's beak, similar with Altair from Assassin's Creed. It's a minor detail yet noticeable. Altair is also connected to a hawk. I know he's Noob scrapped.

What's a more important factor is the personality of Havik. He is a lone wanderer, a rogue, intimidating and fearless. These attributes apply to a predatory bird as well. Funnily, you left this unmentioned. What prevents a name from having multiple meanings in one word? I honestly don't believe that NeRdS would not be aware of the connection with the Dutch word.

Such a term as "foreign tongue" doesn't exist, not even in USA, and this makes me feel that your worldview is veritably limited, unfortunately. The name origins thread does not limit to English only and you know this.
[Havik, as it's written, does mean hawk in Dutch, by the way: source]
What does Scorpion have to do visually with an actual scorpion? Aside from the spear throw, the clan emblem and the recent costume - nothing. If you had actually delved into these, you'd understand that it has not to be obvious and you wouldn't insult the thoughts I share like some immature.
You don't probably believe this either; Bo' Rai Cho comes from the Spanish word borracho meaning drunk but it has other meanings in addition, when you separate the words. Bo comes from the characteristic staff he carries, Rai means advice and Cho means butterfly (ironic).
As for why would Cyrax derive from Arabic: well, you have three ways to write your name if you're Russian for one. Arabic is not the same language as Greek is and this objection of yours relies entirely on Sub-Zero_7th's statement in another topic. Should I be flattered when you call me an encyclopedia? I'm not a human MK wiki nonetheless, none of us is.
I don't frankly have the source for 'Cyrax' being 'unstoppable' at hand right now, but I assume 'unstoppable' is the case here nonetheless. It may derive from the way it's spelled in Arabic. I'll get into this once I'll access to my old computer again. The other Cyrax information should be flawless.
What is funny is that you question these few etymologies this eagerly yet you mention little-to-nothing about the most name backgrounds in the actual thread of the subject. No name background can be considered 100% certain unless the MK team has already confirmed it. Even the original post of the thread mentioned has flaws. I'm sure it's easy for you to complain about new, explained theories when you have cleared only a few names up by yourself and they're not even as new as Bi-Han is.
We have more trustworthy information on the name backgrounds here than what you can find from sites like trmk.org or totalmortalkombat.com.

Is there something wrong with Google - I remember you praised it before? Now, how do you think you're a better source when you're not Midway either? Seriously, if people want to know where Midway got the names, go send NetherRealm Studios, situated in Chicago, some letters or start sending tweets like a madman. I wish you good luck on that.
I have emphasized this before and I emphasize this again: I have not gotten a confirmation on the names' backgrounds by the MK team but I have examined the names with a big bunch of users for years and I had encouraged them to question them in a good mood. I have also searched for multiple sources before suggesting that a name has this and that background. Then we often double checked them.
I have never stated that my etymology information would be bulletproof, I encourage people to make their own conclusions based on the pieces given. I am open to any polite discussion on them.
China has over a billion citizens so I don't obviously know all the names but NeRdS gave the Sub-Zero brothers names that seem by the looks of them just typical Chinese names, yet have hidden messages behind them when you really dig into them. Don't you see the similarity between the words "Kuai Liang" and "Lin Kuei" that they share?
Does not "two-directional him" ring a bell when we talk about Bi-Han also known as Noob Saibot? Han Solo, meaning "he alone", has the same meaning with 'han'. Have your own opinions, but know this before accusing the next time: I never just come up with these; I offer sources, often questioning them but I never want to leave a part of a word's possible meaning unchecked, for finding all the potential key words.
I offer well explained options for the names that aren't revealed by NeRdS themselves. Critique is welcome, plain complaining of the theories is not.
I would sooner co-operate in finding the veritas than fight about it. ッ