I think we were both saying the same thing, just in different ways... for the most part.

I'm not quite following what you mean when you're discussing the frame data and all of that. IMO, adjusting the execution and recovery frames of an attack can drastically change a character (for better or worse). I'd think that would be the easiest way to balance the characters (although I'd like to see property changes as well).

Also, we don't yet know if MK will be a match-up based game. I'm actually hoping it isn't. I prefer games in which the skill of the player means more than the match-up between the two characters.

In SSF4, if two top players go at it, the match-up can give one player an edge. I prefer games like Tekken where the match-up isn't a concern outside of tier placement (which is impossible to avoid).

Agreed

Except for in Karate Champ.
And on that bombshell, I bid you and MKO adieu.

Being that Johnny Cage is the only character (I think) that has a Shoryuken-ish uppercut, yeah I can totally see him playing as Johnny.

Matchups matter very much in Tekken, at least up until 3. Past 3 I've only really played 5 enough to know what the good and bad matchups are, that is apart from the fact that Nina and Steve shut down pretty much everyone except each other. Maybe this new MK won't be a matchup driven game, but like you said, having matchups factor in at least somewhat is unavoidable due to tiers. I just hope we don't have a situation where one character is practically unbeatable (MKDA Scorpion), some characters completely suck (MKD Sub-Zero, Sindel, Kira), or we wind up with too many middle of the road characters and the tide of battle effectively depends on matchups (MKA). I'd love to have a well-balanced game where tiers don't really come into play, but that's a pipe dream. We can only hope that things aren't too unbalanced on release.

Tiers will always factor in somehow, but my definition of a match-up based game is pretty much any Street Fighter. Certain characters just don't match up well with others, and the tier list in SF games is actually based on a complete match-up chart. I don't consider any Tekken games to fall under this category.

It's not out of the question to get a game in which tiers don't matter that much. Look at Tekken 6, aside from a handful of low tier characters, everyone can win. The top tier characters have an advantage, but it's not huge. Compare that to a game like MvC2 where a mid-tier team has no chance against the top tier characters.

Assuming MK 2011 has a roster of ~26 characters, as long as 15-20 are tournament viable, I'll be happy.

I would like to ask the highest ranking, rated, or placing (in tournament standing) Mortal Kombat player in these boards what they truly feel at this point or what they expect from the game upon release. Do you think they are dwelling too much on the technical aspects that the may end up alienating the casual gamer such as my self? Do you think they can find a good balance between technical and accessible like Street Fighter? Just watching the MvC3 game play footage makes me cringe at the fact I know I will never completely grasp the complexity of such a game. It seems a game like that was strictly made for tournament purposes and I hope it's not the case with this MK.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not "the highest ranking, rated, or placing (in tournament standing) Mortal Kombat player in these boards", but I can tell you that MK 2011 will not alienate the casual player. You can tell from the videos that are currently available that this is still MK.

Look at it this way, UMK3 is probably the deepest and most tournament worthy MK to date. It's still fun for the casual player right? Just think of MK 2011 as an extension of that.

I will say that most casual players probably won't like playing against the tournament players though. The game looks to allow enough depth to where there will be a significant difference between a casual player and a tournament player. I see a lot of rage quits in the future...

This is a very in-depth topic. To keep it simple, I will say this. Every fighting game can be played at a very high level if you understand the mechanics and technical stuff of the game. Every fighting game can also be played at a casual level if you just want to have fun. If you want to play MK9 casually, just do so with friends. If you are going to play ranked and such, expect a very wide range of players from noobs to experts.

Having little to no experience playing Street Fighter myself, I'll take your word for it on that one. I don't believe that Tekken is 100% matchup based, but at least in Tekken 3 there are a myriad of situations where characters simply don't match up well, mostly due to safety and quickness, but then again Tekken 3 is extremely deep so I'm probably only scratching the surface.

From what little I've played of Tekken 6, I agree with you and it's nice to see that they've addressed the near brokenness from the first build of T5 where it was Nina/Steve > all. And I definitely hear you about MvC2. I mix up my teams a lot, though usually I run War Machine-doesn't matter-Strider, and anytime my brother picks even 2 of the top tier guys I struggle. That game isn't balanced at all, but can't be considered broken because a good portion of the cast dominates.

As long as the new MK has a much higher percentage of viable characters than UMK3, I can be satisfied. I mean, UMK3's viable characters, IIRC, are Ermac, Human Smoke, Kabal, Kung Lao, and that's pretty much it, as far as I can remember. 4 out of 23ish characters. In a perfect world, this game would be almost akin to Smash Bros., where nearly everyone is viable (...damn you Yoshi...) and the differences between top and bottom are not so drastic that a bottom guy can beat a top guy. Ideally I'll be trying to master every character in the game so I'd really like to get in on the tier discussions when the time comes.

When Tekken 5 was in arcades I was placing top 8 at every major I went to with Feng and Ling. Neither was considered top tier, although Feng was upper-mid. I agree that Steve and Nina were at the top, but they weren't completely unbeatable.

As for getting in on the tier discussion (which I'm sure will start on day one lol), are you going to be playing more offline or online? The reason I ask is because MK 2011 is getting the attention of tournament players, and anyone who wants to have a serious discussion about the tier list will be called into question if their primary experience is with online play.

This is just a heads up, because I can already see the flame wars that will occur between online and tournament players when it comes time to discuss the tier list. Not looking forward to that... lol

I've never played an MK game online, both because the games have been broken and because the community takes full advantage of that, effectively making MK the Call of Duty of fighting games. That being said, I do plan on getting into the online scene this time around, but I will be predominantly playing offline. And as for any potential flame wars, I plan to nip that in the bud from the outset. I'm not going to allow a tier thread to die simply because some people can't handle it.

Knowing how tier discussions usually unfold, I think we can both agree that any serious discussions about such matters can't really happen until we get towards the end of the summer. I'll probably have the thread for it open fairly early, but until we can discuss it seriously, I share your fears about people who don't know what they're talking about spewing garbage.

I've never understood why there has to be such a divide between online/offline players. I mean, clearly the online experience is always going to be different from the offline game, but provided the netcode is decent, if a player is good, he should know what he's talking about in regards to tier lists/matchups/etc even if his experience is predominantly online. Unless you're talking about people (like a good portion of this site) who tend to just play online with zero interest at all in high-level/tournament play, 'cause in that case, then yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from.

I think you can definitely start discussing tiers on day one, but it probably won't be until after Evo for a clear list to start to take shape. I think a lot of the top players will be keeping their best strats secret since Evo is so close to the release of the game.

That said, a tier list is ever changing and a serious discussion about the tiers can be a big help to determining a proper tier list. However, I don't think I've ever seen a serious tier list discussion that didn't end in a flame war of some sort.

It would be great if everyone could state their list and why the characters were ranked the way they were... but since a tier list only comes into play at the highest level, a lot of people who aren't at that level or don't understand that level of play think that their opinion is fact and aren't open to hearing and trying to understand why they may be incorrect.

But we'll see what happens in a few months...



The people who really understand the difference between online and offline play can play predominantly online and still add to a tier list discussion. The problem is that most people who play predominantly online, do not truly understand the different between online and offline.

For example, they don't understand that you can block a 19 frame low attack with ease in an offline environment, but it's basically guaranteed to hit online even with the best connection quality.

Ah, okay, as long as online players aren't just automatically dismissed or anything. I kind of assumed that anyone who takes a game halfway seriously and has spent any time offline would realize there's a huge difference in terms of what you can react to/get away with between the two, but I guess I'm overestimating most people like that.

The tier discussion around here for MKD was pretty much behind the scenes, done way back when we actually had a solid base of gameplay buffs. I'm simply stating that I'm accepting of the fact that it will take a while to get a good solid list in place.

despite final lists, I am just hoping that characters wont be plagued with all their special moves leaving a complete setup if failed. Id like to see at least 1 move that has a decent recovery for every character to adjust tactics.

this subject is deep as hell and I dont think Il make a detialed post until post-release. In a nutshell, I want it to come down to skill, not matchups. Whos to condemn Mileena fans to Scorpion masters (like ive seen in MK2) where all he has to do is rangeblock and occasionally teleport for even the ebst of sai spammers?

its gonna be impossible to not have characters who are just better against certain characters. Like MKDC Scorpion could just "inner fire" all day against flash unless flash palyers knew the mechanics and reach of certain lowkicks etc with complete mastery.

gonna be interesting nonetheless.

There used to be a bunch of tourney players waaaay back in the day but they've all moved on. Guys like Check and MK2KungBroken are all gone =\

I doubt this game will alienate casual players. If you enjoyed SF4 or UMK3 I think you'll be right at home here.

I'm not gone. I'd never leave MKO. This place has played a huge part in where i am at today. MK2KungBroken is still around. In fact, we both live near each other.

Anyway, enough small talk. I just wanted to post to SubMan (hello dude) and everyone else to have no fear about the new MK. This week is a very exciting one for the MK Community, and thats about as much as i can reveal until the time comes that i can say more.

Have TONS of hope. All i can say. And thank you for your years of support. You wont be disappointed.

Holy SHIT! Did they actually hire you like so many users have suggested?

holy shitballs where have you been? And that's great to hear!

HOLY SHIT!!! THEY HIRED CHECK???

Check!!!

Hi there.This is what makes me feel good....and coming from someone who really knows his shit over MK....Fuckin A.

Check as in Jason Wilson, the greatest mk2 player in the world?! Dope.

Ha! I'm so happy for you Check!

This is crazy... SOB got in, lmao!