Oh, I LIKE Dark Raiden, don't get me wrong. I think Raiden desperately needed a change because he'd been stagnant and boring for so long, and that was an awesome one.

I'm just saying, dude's a fucking villain. Every single thing he's done since turning dark has shown a disregard for the lives and freedoms of other beings, many of whom used to be his own friends, allies, and worshippers.

It'd be great if this means we're actually going to start finding out more about the plot of the game. Who the hell ranks up Mileena, for crying out loud?!

1.) MK1: Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung and Goro come screwing with EarthRealm....

Raiden says: We Stopped you fair and square regardless of the fact that you even cheated. Now GTFOH"

2.) MK2: Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung and Motaro, Kintaro, and others come screwing with EarthRealm.... Again

Raiden says: We Stopped you fair and square regardless of the fact that you even cheated...again. Now GTFOH"

3.) MK3: Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung and others come screwing with EarthRealm.... A-GAIN!

Raiden says: We Stopped you fair and square regardless of the fact that you even cheated...AGAIN. Now GTFOH"

4.) MK4: Shinnok, Shang Tsung and and others come screwing with EarthRealm.... ONE MORE TIME?!

Raiden says: We Stopped you fair and square regardless of the fact that you even cheated...AaaaaGAIN. Now GTFOH"

5.) MKDA: Quan Chi and Shang Tsung come screwing with EarthRealm.... and they KILL Liu Kang!!

Raiden says: You Killed my #1 Guy!! And you cheated again to do so. FINE!

6.) MKD: Quan Chi, Shang Tsung, Onaga and others come screwing with EarthRealm.... ONCE AGAIN?!!?

Raiden says: "Fuck it, you killed my main guy, you beat all my mortals...I'll fucking do it myself!" *Blows himself up and comes back in Black Clothes*

7.) MKA: Blaze?!... on top of all those other evil dudes?

Raiden says: Ok, I fought them in Mortal Kombat on their turf and they won, they killed my best guy, the warriors of earth failed, and the corpse is all screwy, and I'm playing mind games with all the bad guys that only wanna screw me over for EarthRealm....

I gotta do something else.

=========

Idk, what other reason would YOU be pissed off?

These assholes keep screwing with my planet >> We Keep stopping them >> and then the bleeding starts from within the planet with Shujinko?

Oh hell no, I need to get this thing under control.

- See there? You didn't hit anything on the head, you blew the inference of evil out of proportion when it's not evil to begin with.

IT'S INTOLERANCE.



I could speculate here...but I'm not gonna.



NO.

He would LET them pass....so long as they didn't get in the way of him protecting earth.



Now...I can understand you might want to pigeonhole me with the "oh, I'm just a big fan of this character" thing, but the contrary to your argument actually exists here.

I won't strawman you as a result.....but I could.

heh

Extreme fanboys I think it was unfair. Raiden doesn't have such extremist

Everyone has thier fav's. however, raiden has always been mine, (other than scorpion), after i seen his fatality in mk1. Dam i wanna see his super man move in this game!

I don't know what to say to you, Pred. Do I have to just keep repeating the phrase "Dark Raiden doesn't care about the mortals anymore, and not caring about them is the definition of evil" over and over again until you acknowledge it in some way?

'Cause, I mean, you've touched on everything BUT that, when that's the core of the matter.

It's not like he protects the realm because he's thinking of the universe's best interests. His "destroy every realm but mine" MKA ending definitely would've brought the One Being back.

How can you have a good reason to protect a realm, if your reason isn't the safety of the people who live there, and it's not for the safety of the universe? He's protecting the LAND and doesn't care who lives on it. That's selfishness.

One step away from being the next Shao Kahn, sitting on a throne, going "this is my kingdom." THAT is where Dark Raiden is and if you're gonna pretend those signs don't exist and his motives are pure when the game is blatantly telling us the opposite, I don't have anything further to say to you.

Every "evil" dictator, everybody you'd compare Dark Raiden to in motives and methods to justify his new lack of patience and going to extremes, they did what they did because they cared about their PEOPLE. Dark Raiden is beyond even that, the game is quite clear that he no longer has any feelings for the humans of Earthrealm. That IS a villainous mindset.

*sigh*

Fine...

*pulls out a straw.*

nah...

===

...and I touched on the "mortals" thing you're talking about.

1.) He doesn't "not care" about the mortals. -- He's intolerant of mortals that get in the way of him protecting Earth.

2.) He takes action against any mortals who, even if by accident, CAUSE Earth to be put in jeopardy. LIKE Shujinko... THAT's why he kills Shujinko. (which I think is actually not canon, btw. But still)

On a note other than the arguing that is currenly taking place..... THIS RELEASE SUCKS.

So you think he still cares about protecting the general citizenry.

Which is why he had absolutely no problem with his zombie enforcer (who I will once again point out is the blatantly violated body of his closest ally) killing his innocent monk worshippers at random.

There's not even a hint of regret or "to make an omlette you gotta break some eggs" mentality when he talks about Zombie Liu in his MKA bio. His exact words are "Satisfied, I then set free this abomination to wreak havoc on those who have done harm to Earthrealm." Well the very first people Zombie Liu killed were Shaolin monks. Innocent, harmless, nameless NPC ones who'd never done a damned thing wrong to Earthrealm and were in fact SERVANTS to Raiden.

It happened. He didn't care. He's fuckin' evil.

I was under the impression that raiden was dark, not evil. But in this game he can end up that way.
BUT i would say that sending past raiden future messages in order to prevent armageddon is probably against the elder god's wishes.
It would be interesting if the elder gods reveal to him that regardless of the changes, armageddon will be inevitable.
That, Raiden getting these messages, and elder gods being pissed could develop into Evilness?

You do know this isn't the BIG release right?

For the record, I don't quite see Raiden as evil, he's more on the neutral side based on what we know.

Let's take a look at what we know:

MK:D Ending:
My patience for mortals has worn thin. If I am to protect Earthrealm, I must punish those who would threaten it. The fool Shujinko had let himself be deceived into believing that he worked for a greater good. He was in fact an unknowing tool of a greater evil- one that had almost caused the destruction of Earthrealm. That Shujinko undid his mistake and destroyed the Dragon King is of no importance. Those who place Earthrealm in harm's way will pay with their lives.

This basically states he will take anyone who is of a threat of Earthrealm, be it Good or Evil. He does not slay innocents or those who have no effect on Earthrealm's existence, just those who are putting the realm in danger be it intentionally or unintentionally as in Shujinko's case. This does not seem like an act of Evil, it just seems like he is doing his job as protector of Earth. He's not singling out the forces of good or evil, he's making sure nobody tries to destroy his planet. This gives no indication that he has no care for the people that inhabit Earth, quite the contrary if you ask me.

MK:A Bio:
No longer will I entrust the safety of Earthrealm to the free will of mankind. The time has come to take matters into my own hands

Centuries ago I defeated an ancient sect of necromancers, the Houan. Though their members subsequently were scattered to the winds, their ancient underground temple still existed, abandoned and unused for ages. On the stone walls within were etched enchantments that would revive the dead. Strewn about were the enchanted chains of binding the Houan would use to control their undead.

I laid the corpse of Liu Kang on a ceremonial altar and bound it with the shackles. Reciting the unholy enchantments, I brought to life the body of my former ally and infused it with a thunderclap of lightning. The corpse of Liu Kang would be no mere zombie; it would serve as my ultimate enforcer. Satisfied, I then set free this abomination to wreak havoc on those who have done harm to Earthrealm.

Though I tried to conceal my activities, my use of the dark energies did not go unnoticed. Shinnok appeared before me and proposed an alliance. He would help secure the protection of Earthrealm in return for my aid in some undisclosed plot. I am no fool. I know well the treachery of this former Elder God. I accepted his offer and will complete this task, but only to discover his true objective. Until then, I will use Shinnok to serve my own ends.

This to me, echoes what was said before. He isn't leaving it up to the mortals to save Earth anymore. He is making sure nothing happens to the realm he was supposed to protect. He is going to destroy those who are of harm to Earth. He doesn't harm those who aren't trying to destroy Earth, so it's not like he's just murdering millions for his own desires, he is killing those who are trying to end Earth. If you are trying to harm Earth, you're perceived as evil. Be it if you are doing it on purpose or not, Raiden will stop you. Is it good? Depends on your viewpoint. If you are an inhabitant on Earth, Raiden is like Superman. He's not evil. However, if you are messing up Earth, yeah he's probably "evil" in your eyes.

Then there's the part with Liu. Zombie Liu is set free to wreak havoc on those who have done harm to Earth. Once again, I don't see this is an evil trait. It's neutral. He is using Liu as an enforcer, to help eliminate any threats of Earth. That's not a bad thing, especially if you are on Earth. Raiden isn't harming anyone who isn't trying to destroy Earth, so I don't see how this can be compared with Hitler. Hitler killed innocents just because he didn't like their religion or looks, not because they were a threat to the well being of his country. Raiden is actively protecting and keeping Earth safe, he isn't going off and trying to harm others including innocents for his own personal power game etc.

His deal with Shinnok is once again in the best interest of Earth. He doesn't trust Shinnok, he's not being buddies with him or being blind to some sort of manipulation, he is just making a treaty in the best interest of Earth. If Shinnok steps out of lign and threatens Earth, he'll kill him.

MK:A Ending:
The thunder god, Raiden, overpowered Blaze and absorbed the energy intented to transform the sons of Argus.
His strength enhanced beyond that of other gods, Raiden became a deity of unimaginable power.
Releasing his fury upon the realms, he destroyed them all.
None would threaten Earthrealm again.

Here he goes mad and ends up ending all other realms instead of Earth. Here is the only act that somewhat gives off an Evil vibe. However, endings aren't always canon, and this one obviously isn't. So Raiden as of canon events, isn't evil and never did this. There's a lot of stuff that happens in non canon endings, so I don't see why this should be held against Raiden.

That's the way I see it. I am not going to go back and forth about it, but I just figured I would at least throw my analysis out there. I see Raiden as Neutral. He'd be good in the eyes of Earthrealm inhabitants that aren't a threat to Earth, and want to remain alive and well. He'd be evil to those who are wishing to do good, but are unintentionally fucking things up. But ultimately he is completely neutral. He isn't off trying to concur other realms or killing innocents, he's merely protecting his realm from those who threaten it. Much like you protect your own house or family etc. from those who threaten it, whether it be with good intentions or bad intentions, you are protecting what is "yours" so to speak. It doesn't make you evil. It's not like you're the one going to other houses to fuck shit up. You're just minding your own business but keeping your stuff safe.

Like all those harmless monks he remorselessly let Zombie Liu kill.

I was fixin to ask the same thing. What could harmless monks have done to be put at the top of Raidens most wanted list?!?

Ruthless people do have a twisted sort of emotion associated with the consequences of their actions. Like Malcom X, the phrase:

"By any means necessary" kinda constitutes collateral damage in the process. It's more of an excuse than it is a justification for him NOT feeling remorse for the actions of the Zombie he awakened. But since we're talking about his attitude essentially, he'll probably feel that it is a justification, so long as the objective is met.

"Those monks must have gotten in the way of the corpse"...etc



Right.

The fact that Raiden tends to necromancy on Liu Kang's dead body to zombify him and that he doesn't seem to care that Zombie Liu Kang is killing innocent people does make Raiden sound like he's on the verge of evilhood. His intentions might be good, but as said, the means to do so aren't justified. He's literally using perverted and twisted dark magic on his closest human ally - it shows he's lost his emotional attachment to humankind and had a significant loss of morals.

If Dark Raiden is not evil, he damn well is only but a step away from becoming so.

...is what an evil person would say to justify a slaughter that there is no justification for.

Have you ever considered the possibility that if you see where Dark Raiden is coming from and find yourself agreeing with his point of view, your own morals may be askew?

What kind of monster thinks "they're dead 'cause they got in the way" is acceptable?

Sometimes shit happens? If you're gonna make an omelet you're gonna break a few eggs? Idk...I just don't recall reading Raiden specifically not caring about the loss of those innocents, they were never brought up in his bios/endings so it's not really a thing you can judge. It's possible Raiden had no clue of Zombie Liu's innocent killings. Raiden is protecting Earth, doesn't mean he is keeping an eye on his enforcer to make sure everyone he stops is a threat.

That's the way I see it.

I'm not looking to change your mind on how you see it, as I don't even think that's a possibility online with most people, but I just figured I'd add my own viewpoint in all of this. Raiden comes off as Neutral to me, not Evil. If you see his actions as Evil, that's just how you view his actions. That's how it is in life as well. However, I just don't get Evil based on what we know from the bios/endings.

I wouldn't really buy that explanation. Raiden's too intelligent and powerful to just simply have not known what his zombie was up to right after he set him loose on a killing spree. It's not like it took place in Outworld, beyond his godly ability to sense what's going on. It's the Shaolin temple, they're his own worshippers.

I know you 3 guys are in a heated debate, but I'm putting my two cents in as well.

There is no way you can convince me that killing innocent monks is acceptable. I use to think Raiden was a more stern god, but when your making deals with long time enemies and using an undead pawn to kill the weak and helpless, and it almost seems like he did that to show his lack of caring for the humans he once protected......your gonna come off as evil regardless.

Not to mention using unholy magic to desecrate your most trusted ally's body.

That is a pretty Ruthless way to think about things, isn't it?

And stop jabbing at me personally, Razor. I don't feel like taking offense to anyone today, so I haven't. I'd simply like to enjoy the conversation instead. Being able to relate to a character in some way is normal...that's what makes people have favorite characters most of the time.

That said, I don't agree with the ways I could understand Dark Raiden thinking towards all the possible threats to earth. I simply find it an interesting twist in the hypothetical psychology of this character.

Never change,MKO.

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from.

I've listed a variety of vile and unconscionable acts Dark Raiden committed or facilitated, and you've looked at each individual one and gone "that's extreme but it's not "evil"."

...and there comes a point where I have to go "Well if that doesn't fit your definition of evil, then what IS your definition of evil and why is it so lax?"

Yeah, discussions tends to evolve on a forum like this. I'd rather have that than a bunch of people going "I like that." or "That's ugly."... Instead this thread turned into an interesting discussion about Raiden's alignment as Dark Raiden. It's been quite informative. ^^