No he isn't. He learns things, is hurt, is forced to fight people, etc. If he was all-powerful, he could completely change reality, on a whim.

For example, MK vs. DC would've never happened because, if he was all-powerful, Raiden could've instantly separated the two Universes. Or he wouldn't have resurrected Liu Kang, because, if he was all-powerful, he wouldn't need an 'enforcer.'



He didn't die in MK:D he 'released his godly essense.' Essentially, he used to technique to break himself apart (like a puzzle) and put himself back together again somewhere else.

There's no evidence to suggest that he couldn't die, and mountains of evidence (in the form of endings, successful fatalities, etc.) to suggest that he can be.

Then again...

Lmao

Except for Silk Spectre, she can fuck him whenever she wants.

Yes he is, of course he learns things but that still has nothing to do with the fact that he's a God and immortal and insanely powerful. There's different kinds of "power" you're just pet peeving over which kind of power.

And keep in mind, Raiden may not be able to create a universe or galaxy or something but he's sure as hell capable of destroying an entire world if he wanted to.

MKvsDC was a "what if scenario" and not even canon, if you noticed in storymode he does quite a lot. But still if he wasn't remotely powerful then he wouldn't have been able to deal with the crossover crisis rescuing Liu Kang himself, being the last one standing besides Superman if you didn't notice.

The only reason he needs an enforcer is because it's the rules of Mortal Kombat, if Raiden wanted to he could just kill whoever invaded Earthrealm and even if he failed initially he'd still just come back at some point plus there's always the other God's like Fujin.

Besides, if you want to bring up games I'll bring up MKA where he gains insane power as does Fujin so that he even created a world off the remaining fragments of the other realms.

Yes, I never said he died in MKD. I said he can never die. He pretty much used his power and destroyed everything within a mile+ range except the Dragon King and then he later reformed once his energies came back.

Well, for one Raiden-God of Thunder/immortal...yeah I'd say that's enough for a explanation as to "why can't he die" besides Boomboom's obvious statement which the MK team even said that once themselves or rather John Vogel. Guy in charge of the story for the most part.

So if Raiden wanted to, he could destroy worlds... Yet he can't kill Quan Chi and Shang Tsung, two measly sorcerers? You're seriously going to say that two sorcerers = 1 god in power? The good doctor wins this, sorry.
The enforcer thing has been thrown out the window since MKT, when it was established that MK is no longer a tournament, but an all-out war. Raiden fights, and he still sucks hard compared to Liu Kang.
Your MKA argument is full of shit because Raiden and Fujin needed to defeat Blaze to get those powers; if they had the raw power you keep insinuating, they would've already had those powers well before defeating Blaze. They don't have them from the start, while Dr. Manhattan does.
Also, Raiden uses every last bit of his energy to try and destroy Onaga and FAILS; Dr. Manhattan lifts a finger and kills thousands of people at once.
Dr. Manhattan can re-arrange atoms while Raiden can summon lightning... Re-arranging atoms > making lightning because he can manipulate things into other things. Raiden cannot do this.
mkflegend, you know too little about Dr. Manhattan to even be able to have a discussion about the limits of his powers, and know too little of the MK story line to make any sense (anyone who can say Raiden can destroy worlds but doesn't acknowledge that he can't beat two magicians in a simple fight knows jack-shit about the story). Raiden is limited, Dr. Manhattan is not.
Dr. Manhattan Wins
FATALITY

You missed the point a bit, when did I ever say they didn't need to defeat Blaze? That's the whole point...AFTER they beat Blaze they got those powers, but we still don't know who's endings (with some) are canon and who's aren't outside of the few we got. It was assumed whoever read that would know obviously I meant after defeating Blaze....not before. I brought that up merely because MKDC was brought up....but it's obvious Fujin and Raiden have their own sense of power to begin with. The power they got after taking out Blaze was just on a more staggering level.


Speaking of which where did you guys put those, I wish to read something on a few characters the bios we did get.

I admit concerning Quan and Shang, that they should have been dead but somehow survived lol. There's your "in MK, nobody dies" Kahn, then the sorcerers, then Liu Kang etc.

Actually, I know a lot about the MK storyline more then you know and am learning more about Dr. M. obviously he's insanely powerful(and people think Superman was bad lol)If I knew nothing, then I wouldn't have made this thread to begin with. Didn't you read the links I posted? or did you miss that part and just read when I mentioned Raiden? All I'm saying is Raiden is very powerful, I'm not saying "he'd rape Dr. M" because if you can quote me saying such please quote me otherwise you clearly misunderstand what I'm saying here. You're also missing the point concerning what I meant about Fujin and Raiden. Again, they may not have powers of Dr. M but they're both immortal for one=you never die which is power in itself and have insane powers of their own.

All I'm saying. You want to be honest with yourself, Dr. M vs. Raiden or Fujin. It doesn't matter because ALL of one them will just reform so it's ultimately pointless since you can't die for good. Hear what I'm saying?

lol, missed that part ^ MKT lmao. Well there's a Watchmen game coming out you knw where I can kill Dr. M then brag about hey "I killed Dr. M" if I get to play as him.

Sweet, so you both brought up non-canon shit, brilliant. It doesn't change the fact that Raiden and Fujin do not have the kind of power Dr. Manhattan has.

I'm talking about the MK: Deception intro; they didn't die, they beat the living fuck out of Raiden. 2 sorcerers > 1 god; not only does that make no sense, it also proves that Raiden does not have the kind of power that you expect him to. Great, he's immortal, but all that means is that he can come back to life. He doesn't come back stronger, he doesn't come back with new abilities, he just cannot be killed... But the problem is that he can be overpowered, whereas Dr. Manhattan cannot. By a God's expected standards, Raiden is pathetically weak.

I do believe you made this thread because you're asking what kind of limits does Dr. Manhattan have compared to other characters in the comic/video game universe, not because you actually know. It does show that you don't know enough about his character because you think he can be compared to the likes of any other one that currently exists. I'm glad you're doing some research, but the best kind of research you can get about him is by reading the graphic novel, as that's where you'll find everything about him. Believe me, the only person he could compare to is most likely the Abrahamic God that exists in religion.
As I wrote earlier, immortality = dick if you can be overpowered. Sorry, but just because cannot be killed doesn't make them unbeatable, it just means that they can be someone's bitch for all eternity. Quan Chi and Shang Tsung beat Raiden, and still had enough juice to try and finish each other off, then try and fight of Onaga. Raiden was able to continue fighting too (sign of poor story-telling right there), but Shang and Quan handled Raiden very well, especially considering he is a God. Let's not forget that the original Sub-Zero beat Fujin, and the other elemental gods of Earth, Water and Fire, so it just goes to show that being a God in MK doesn't mean you have a lot of power, since you can be beaten by mortals.

Did I miss the punchline or something?

I never said Raiden and Fujin have "the same powers" that Dr. Man has or vice versa. Just want to clarify that. I said they're all God's in their own right with their respected powers.

I only brought up MKA(which if anything is more canon then MKDC which is already confirmed not canon) since Dark mentioned MKDC. But still MK9 needs to address some things obviously.

I don't think Raiden is "pathetically" weak, I think saying he got the living shit kicked out of him is a bit much. If you watch it, Raiden was actually beating the hell out of both at once. He was only knocked out for like what? 1 minute or two....wow lol that's far from ownage. Plus, remember Raiden(light normal Raiden) is like Superman he never uses his power to his "full extent" that much if at all. Look at his MKD ending....he kills Shujinko with ease yet Jinko had all this power....arguably more then both Quan and Shang. Care to explain that? Why Raiden didn't just teleport all over the place puzzled me lol.

Dark Raiden=insane and will go the extra mile compared to normal Raiden that's what I've come to realize. I see now why people compare Raiden and Superman, they're similar in more ways then one being Earth's protector...they're afraid to use their FULL power half the time if you haven't noticed unless absolutely needed.

Raiden and Fujin are powerful but can be defeated, just not killed. If you're talking Blaze's power on top of their normal godly powers different story. I mean we saw what Raiden and Fujin did afterwards recreating worlds, and in Dark Raiden's case destroying EVERY other realm....I'd say that's power to put it lightly...

The gods in MK are very powerful, but obviously have to be able to be beat due to the storyline which I have hardly any issues with especially compared to other fighters which lacks it tremendously but that's another story for another time...

On MK though, the gods are more along the lines of mythologies where they're tough, powerful but can be defeated(not killed but defeated, there is a difference) If Fujin wanted he could just come back and keep fighting C. Sub til he kills him but that would kind of contractict the point of the storyline now wouldn't it? lol If MK team wanted they could make Raiden, Fujin beyond powerful but that would kill the whole "how can anyone compete with them fairly" question....now the Elder Gods, different story. They don't fight but their power clearly exceeds the normal Gods like Raiden, Fujin etc

Like I was saying before, the biggest thing I'd love to know in MK is how quan and Shang survived that blast from Raiden. Otherwise, I have no complaints honestly. Nothing is perfect afterall, right?

As for the thread, in all honesty I've as you read now know Dr. M's powers with reading more about him per-se as well as those links but wanted to hear further discussion concerning everyones thoughts. Since I'm always reading "Phoenix is the most powerful thing in fiction" which I've called bs before learning about Dr. M honestly lol but it's obvious Dr. M is very powerful and is short of nobody other then real "god" as far as I'm concerned. If I wanted to know about Dr. M I wouldn't have read up on him and just asked "Can someone explain everything about Dr. M to me from Watchmen"

Now if I can only convince my friend that Dr. M is more powerful then SS, but he's a huge Marvel guy and hates DC outside of Watchmen and Batman lol.

Duly noted.

True, but all it took was one fireball from Shang Tsung to floor him, then Quan Chi and Shang Tsung both overpowered him and put him out of commission. He may have only been knocked out for a minute or two, but as I stated earlier, that's a sign of poor writing for the introduction, not a sign of Raiden's pure power. With that in mind, I could argue that had Quan Chi not been distracted by Onaga, he'd have made sure that Raiden and Shang Tsung would not have gotten back up. Quan Chi won that, and had Onaga not interfered, he probably would've succeeded altogether, with the army and with his most powerful enemies all dead.

Gladly. You forget that before he faced off against Onaga directly, he absorbed the collective fighting powers of all the characters at once, including Raiden. Then he smashed the Kamidogu, and killed Onaga. After that, we got the biographies of Raiden and Shujinko, both of which confirm that Raiden's MKD ending did not happen, since neither mention the two of them fighting after Onaga is defeated. Is it entirely possible that Raiden can kill Shujinko? Probably, but keep in mind that a lot of endings, like all of the ones in MK1 and 2, and most of the ones in Trilogy, have the respective players defeating Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn, or Shinnok. Are you going to argue that those endings could mean that Johnny Cage has enough power to defeat Shang Tsung or Shao Kahn? Would you argue that same case for Sonya, Jax, Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Baraka, Mileena, etc.? All their endings have them defeat characters who are a lot more powerful than they are, so why should the one regarding Raiden killing Shujinko be accepted as a fact that he can when everyone acknowledges that in reality, these characters just can't go the extra mile.

Let's just drop the Blaze bit already; there's no reason to bring non-canon material into this discussion.

You should have problems with the MK story line just because of the issues there are with regards to which fighters really are the most powerful out there and which aren't. We are never given an idea as to what real limits most of these guys have. I personally believe that characters like Raiden and Fujin should be like Dr. Manhattan, and true god figures that can do whatever they want, and not be able to be defeated by the likes of guys like Liu Kang or Shujinko. If I had written MK's story, I'd make the fact that they're gods matter a lot, and explain if why they are limited in what they can or cannot do.

The fact that they make them beatable in the first place is a problem, as it makes guys like Sub-Zero seem overpowered and guys like Fujin appear underpowered. How is it that a 30-something year old guy can out-power a god with millions of years of training and wisdom under his belt? And with that in mind, your argument of Fujin wanting to just come back has a big hole; if he could, why didn't he? That's a problem right there because instead of coming back, he gets torn to pieces by his own tornado. The other gods blow up too actually, and if they could just come back together with a snap of somebody's fingers, why didn't the Fire God stop Sub-Zero and Quan Chi from getting the amulet? Why did Raiden have to come in and tell Sub-Zero the whole story of the amulet instead of the Fire God? All this does is show that when the gods are really put down, they stay down.
The writers do put limits on their characters, yes, but because of that, it makes them a whole lot weaker. I mean, there's a part in Watchmen where

You can say that Fujin and Raiden could possibly do this, but the fact that Dr. Manhattan actually does this shows that he isn't limited like Raiden and Fujin.

They didn't survive; Shang Tsung's MKA bio revealed that he was killed, but his soul was bound to Kahn, so as long as Kahn lives, Shang Tsung cannot go to the Netherealm; Shao Kahn just made him a new body using his flesh pits. Quan Chi never had a bio that revealed how he survived, but most likely, he died as well, and just got a new body once he was in the Netherealm, since Scorpion can get a new body every time he dies as well.

Glad to see you understand that Dr. Manhattan is awesome, in the literal sense, not slang.

Ok, first few paragraphs I pretty much agree with.

But I have to address a few things just to clear few things up.

Only thing on your whole Shang, Quan and Raiden gig I wish to address is that Quan wouldn't have succeeded only because of Onaga's existence. In other words, sooner or later Onaga would have come hunting for his army and totally overthrown and killed Quan himself....

Remember, if two sorcerers and a God couldn't handle him how would or could Quan-Chi?

It just so happens canonwise, it happened sooner then later...and made for a better intro with Onaga coming out of nowhere...

Concerning my Raiden vs. Jinko point, just a scenario I'm giving you(despite canon or not) at the time before MK team wrote and confirmed that didn't happen I'm saying it was assumed....yet Jinko had as you said everyones powers including Raiden's just about yet Dark Raiden killed him with ease....so if he could kill Shujinko someone with god knows how many abilities/powers, why couldn't Dark Raiden handle two sorcerers?

Hear what I'm saying, just something to think about despite canon or not.

Ok, concerning your issues with the MK story at times. Honestly, that claim/point can be said about just about any fighter. Do we know how powerful Akuma, Bison is compared to Ryu, Ken, Dan etc? Not really...

Similar case with MK but I think overall you get the idea in both, in SF's cases I'd love to know personally WHY Akuma (who was trained by the same guy that trained Ryu, Ken keep in mind) is for one evil, two more powerful....and why Dan seems rather underpowered in comparison....

Concerning MK now, well to answer that it's because of the rules of MK in general(not referring to story here so much) but the fact that the mortals are strong enough to take out such a threat which is why Raiden, Fujin can't interfere unless someone goes against the Rules like Kahn does in MK3 with portals and post MK tournaments MKA etc where chaos is happening.

Ok, your Sub-Zero mythologies I can explain your questions.

For one, firegod won't help Sub-Zero for a few reasons. A. He's not the protector of Earthrealm, he's the firegod in charge of protecting the same thing Quan and Sub were after Amulet.

As for why and how can Sub beat/take out a firegod? Well, ask yourself this. If Sub can do it, what makes you honestly think a Sorcerer(with more power then Sub and god knows how old) can't take out a firegod? He did partially K.O. Raiden afterall....

As for Fujin and Sub, well that's simple. It would contradict the point of the storyline. Everyone knows Raiden, Fujin etc can't die and are immortal despite their "power" levels as oppose to other characters weaker yet being able to compete with them. If they did that, there would be no point to begin with. Know what I mean? Plus, remember they portrayed at the time Fujin as more of a neutral/bad guy in that game before we realized he's actually an allie of the good guys in the MK storyline via the fighting games.

He wouldn't have fought Fujin obviously if it was currently or MK4 where Fujin is the protector, not Raiden but this is many years before obviously. Just something to take into consideration.

I see what you're saying concerning MK team putting limits on their Godly characters but it's all because of either rules or the fact of others being able to compete with the God's. They could put insane God non limits on Raiden and Fujin but that would also mean they wouldn't be able to compete....because they're too powerful.

Honestly as cool as Dr. M is, I can see why some people aren't fond of him. You can make the opposite argument about Dr. M having practically "no limits" and/or "no weaknesses"=pointless

Why not Dr. M take over the Universe? Why doesn't he solve the Universes problems himself? Know what I mean?

Because...



Otherwise I'm sure he'd be ultra hated lol

Just my view, fun discussing with ya.

This movie has lots of blue penis in it.....

....

beside that it was the best fu**in movie ever!!!!

Dr M got owned by Adrian and his misses who left him to screw a dweeb.

Whah?! A Raiden conversation without me?

How absurd. haha..

Tell ya the truth though, without reading what everyone has written here, I don't know enough about Manhattan to determine logical cross references. Ultimately, I'd probably end up arguing that there isn't enough known about Raiden to determine who'd be "better".

You need adequate info on both characters to do that and it isn't there for Mk's contestant in this case. I'd say just looking at the surface info for Manhattan, and just based on what's there for Raiden, Raiden would likely loose. The MKTeam has not described Raiden's more omnipotent form at all yet. So there's really only the human form to consider.

Manhattan is like "God Almighty" the way they have him. Alot like the way I expected Shinnok to be back in MK4 (what a let down that was btw)

Raiden's more like "The Leader God of Earth" the way they have shown him. They've spent so much time emphasizing how human Raiden is, it's hard to even imagine that there should be a "different", more omnipresent form of Raiden at all. Atop that, the only massive power he has ever displayed was a sacrifice. Cool, but nowhere near enough to compare to other well vetted characters in the comic world(s).

Just sayin, we need to see more from MK's "most powerful" characters to actually, adequately judge. Until then, it's going to continue to be justifiable bias in favor of the more known character.

Manhattan, Superman..., hell, there's probably even some ridiculous way to pair up Spiderman vs Raiden...(i.e. "did you see what happened in episode "x comic", with Spiderman vs "x character")ect.

I've always seen him as Demi-God like in power. Or the equivalent of an Angel to the Elder Gods.

Of course, when you then think about Raiden vs Superman, I don't regard MK vs DC as cannon as regard power relations, since it's all explained with the magic from the realm's merging anyway. None magical realm binding circumstances and the DC characters would have stomped all over the MK ones.


A theory I've had about Raiden is that although the Gods are immense in power, for a standard God to change things on earth, they have to take a physical form, and in doing so, they are rendered weak compared to how they would be in a spirit form in the MK heavens.

Now, about the Elder Gods. If Raiden is like a Demi-God or an Angel, then the MK Elder Gods are more like Greek or Norse full on Gods. However, even then, they are not omnipotent, or omniscient - they had to battle the One Being in the beginning, but suffice to say, they are immensely powerful, and could end the MK events on a whim, but they are bound by their rules not to interfere. Raiden, as a regular God, and Fujin too, though among the very strongest in the games, are probably nothing compared to their Elders.

Yeah, I agree much with ThePredator151 and brings up valid points. We really don't know "THAT much" concerning Raiden's background other then the already obvious.

His essense seems more powerful then anything at this point but I still say/believe that Dark Raiden seems more ruthless, powerful and will go that "extra mile" to ensure Earth's safety....something the old Raiden would never do or at least go differently about it as oppose to "destroy EVERY other realm" to ensure Earth's survival lol.

The MKDC thing, despite canon or not I still believe Raiden among some others would be a force to be dealt with. Outside of Supes, WW DC's lineup in the game really aren't all THAT powerful.

And let's face it, MK characters NEVER die....lol You can't kill Raiden, Scorp is already dead, Kang has been undead, Subby, Sonya and Jax always manage to survive(not including C. Sub/aka Noob obviously) but current Subby and there's other MK characters like Quan, Ermac, Fujin etc that are also pretty damn powerful but sadly didn't make the cut in this game who can take on those other DC guys. Not ripping DC(I love DC besides MK) just stating MK has some powerhouses as well to consider.

I'll say he is god-like, but he is not an inevitable force.

He may seem all-powerful but I can name a few people that can stop him.

Think of it this way even in terms YOU could understand. Dr. Manhattan can kill the whole entire MK universe with a mere thought. Raiden could probably only destroy a handful of DC characters with electricity. That's the difference

DRM was so gangster in the movie. I loved his look, use of power. Amazing character.

Might be pretty picky but, consider this perspective:

You do not know that for a fact, about Raiden. All you know is what you've seen and read. But that's also what's wrong when we "match up" other very powerful characters against Raiden. Because concerning Raiden, there is no "cap", no clarification, no clear lines ever really drawn about the character accept for when we see him....in human form.

That's what I'm saying is "wrong" about these types of match-ups.

I think there was one time he lost to Shao Kahn on Outworld back in Mk3 or something. But even then, there is no clarification as to the conditions of the fight. And I'm saying, there's needs to be, in order to adequately match up Raiden vs other, more well known, more well vetted, very powerful characters such as Mr Manhattan, Superman, and even some of the other Mortal Kombat contestants.

You see? We have parameters to gauge by for these comic characters, we have very little, if any at all of the same parameters to judge by for Raiden.

We can say for a fact, that Mr Manhattan has power of thought. But, concerning the other, and I would think more prevalent attribute of Raiden, we don't know what the hell he has....And THAT would make a difference.

Don't you think it would make a world of difference, if we actually knew for a fact that saaaay, Raiden is responsible for the Death of the Dinosaur? And how he did it? Don't you think it would make a big difference in comparing Raiden to Manhattan, if we knew that saaaay, Raiden destroyed "the first Earth", and created another one? And how he did it?

Well?

This is what we know:

: He lost to two sourcerers.......As a Human.
: He couldn't kill Onaga.....As far as we could tell, as a human
: He lost to Shao Kahn at one point.

Oh,and then there this--

: He defeated and banished the then, Elder God Shinnok during the war on the Heavens.....as a God.

lol If you can not see a difference between the two forms. idk.

We also know Raiden can fly, but not sure in what form. We also know he can go anywhere.....but not sure where he can't go. We know he can beat an Elder God......but not sure in what form he can't beat Shao Kahn. Who is not even a God.

The point is, He Needs Clarification before you can judge without having a bias towards the character because of what we know about the other character in the equation.

This is not your fault mind you, and I don't want it to seem as though I'm aiming to diminishing the awesomeness of Manhattan, or any other character for that matter. Because I'm not, actually.

I'm just saying, think about all the "stuff" you know, or CAN know about Manhattan. Then, try to apply the same standard to Raiden. "It doesn't Match Up Right", and it's not because Raiden's "weaker", it's because he's not explained.

For instance, Raiden can sacrifice himself, but he does not have a limit to his power either. Explain that without saying "Raiden cain't".

Well, this thread has been horribly diverted.

Oh, by the way, Watchmen sucks. The movie could have been 30 minutes long. Take the first 10 and the last 20, there's your whole storyline. The middle 2 hours were filler and didn't advance the plot at all. I hate how nobody can make a superhero movie with a decent storyline.

>.>
^.^