This thread makes my head hurt.

You bring up interesting ideas with regards to how Raiden was and how he currently is, but you misunderstood what I meant with "breaking the rules"; I was referring more to the fact that he can literally do the impossible, like break the laws of physics and is one step away from being an alchemist. Raiden has never been shown to do this, and even though he now has his bad-boy persona, it doesn't mean he can. I don't think that the developers intended Raiden to have the kind of power the traditional Christian God has though, but more like the Chinese/Japanese/Greek Gods, locked into their designated elements, but still having designated super abilities. Perhaps in his current state, Raiden can do the unthinkable, like Dr. Manhattan, but he's still the God of Thunder and Lightning, while guys like Fujin are the God of Wind; if any of them could do more than their abilities, why would they need a pantheon or need more than one god?
I do agree with there being a problem about not having enough information to be in Raiden's favour, especially since there are so few games, and none of them focus on Raiden himself, but The Watchmen is only 12 comics, and we know more about Dr. Manhattan than half of the MK cast. Not only that, Raiden was in official MK comics, and is not seen doing more than blowing away a few demons with his powers when he is protecting Fujin, Kai, and Liu Kang. That may seem significant, except that he states that he and Fujin are the last of the Earth gods. The demons were about to kill Fujin before the monks and Raiden stepped in, and Raiden also stated that they were fighting in the Elder God's Eternal Palace. Gods died man, and they didn't resurface. I swear, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass. That's why it's hard for me to take what happened in MKD so seriously, because both Raiden and Shang Tsung just got back up as if nothing happened. That's a tremendous problem when it comes to the writing of MK, because it's inconsistent.

Pred, you're definitely one the most well-versed on the MK stories on MKO, but I cannot believe you missed Shijinko's official MKA biography, which never states he fought and was killed by Raiden. As much as I hate to say it, until we hear otherwise, Shujinko beat Onaga and Raiden did shit all to him for putting Earthrealm in harm's way; therefore, Raiden's MKD ending is non-canon.

Problem here is that I'm not talking about standard gameplay here; anybody who takes the standard gameplay into discussion about characters is a bit foolish, right? If we did that, then every fighting game that has Wolverine in it should allow him to constantly regenerate. Anyway, if we look at Raiden in the MKD, we see that outside of the tournament bit, Raiden still loses. He had to fight long and hard to stand up against Quan Chi and Shang Tsung and he lost. This wasn't something limited to a video game, this was a cinematic, where the creators could have had him do anything they wanted, and rather than show Raiden as a powerful guy, they weakened him. This wasn't an MK fight either, as it was clearly 2-on-1, and even though there's Endurance mode in some MK games, the second fighter only comes in after the first is dead. This was an all-out battle, and Raiden couldn't deal with it. This isn't about using Raiden in a video game, this is about how he stands up completely against Dr. Manhattan, being-to-being, no different from his fighting against Quan Chi and Shang Tsung in the MKD intro.

I do agree with that; I think that in order for this to even be a fair discussion, we need to take it out of the limitations the games put. We know a lot more about Dr. Manhattan, and we know too little about Raiden. I think that we need to discuss this when more information about Raiden is readily available, especially what he's like at his maximum power. As you said before, the only way thus far that we have seen Raiden limited, is by self restraint. We'll see how this whole Dark Raiden thing plays out.

-- Moot point as far as doing the impossible. Especially literally. I don't think that needs much explanation aside from looking at the characters surface abilities.

Being close to being an alchemist only makes Manhattan different. Like the difference between Darkseid and Shao Kahn. One can shoot green plasma, one can shoot the red omega beam.

Raiden breaks the laws of physics, gravity, space, and time teleporting and performing his torpedo all the time man. Let alone being thee conductor of electricity. That's in and outside the ring, mortal, or god form too.

-- Far as being locked in an element, I've never subscribed to that thinking. I've always thought of the gods in MK as having a significant power (something that absolutely makes them recognizable right away), and then backseat influences from any and all beliefs that makes a god..."God".

-- Pantheons are objects (basically "houses") given up to the gods as a symbol of recognition and worship.

So to me, it's not a "need", it's just a justification that the gods in Mortal Kombat do have worshipers. And that they are - actually - gods.

Far as multiple gods, I've always viewed it like a network. Or like the hierarchy of a business (a "pyramid" for instance). Particular workers have specific jobs. If some of those positions aren't filled, then things can and will "get out of balance", and it makes more work for the head persons to do.

So, since folks like the Elemental Gods aren't there right now, I assume that's part of Raidens urgent activity in MKDA-MKD.

If this were an actual person, I'd bet on Raiden looking at all the crap Fujin has to deal with already, and figuring that the mess these two sorcerers are making, would make it virtually impossible for Fujin to handle alone.

And so Raiden steps back in, again. People do that at work all the time, but I'm not sure at all that the MkTeam thought about this like that. haha...



-- It's not out of character for a God character to "only use what is necessary to get a job done". If he knows that most things (mortals or otherwise) are susceptible to his type of electric shock, why use anything else?

-- I've read the MK comics too, I've even cut a few images from those pages. But I don't see any conflicting information within them that justifies Manhattan being a stronger god type than Raiden. There's nothing in them that justifies an argument that says Raiden is "weaker" than Manhattan.

-- I agree with you about MKDs opener. But again you're missing the fact that it was Raiden who challenged the two sorcerers to Mortal Kombat for Earth.

Therefor, Raiden was in mortal form during that entire sequence, because he had to be in order to engage.

What baffled me during my first few times watching the thing, is why he would go into that fight after the Elder Gods advised him not to, and knowing that in order to participate, he would have to be in mortal form. Why didn't he just kill them in god form and get it over with if it was so important? Well to me, it just says alot about his personality in that, he's going to try and adhere to the rules, even in the most dire of circumstances.

Here, some 30sec or so into the vid, Shujinko says it loud and clear that Raiden challenges the two to Mortal Kombat. And under the condition that Raiden challenged those mortals, right then and there, Raiden must adhere to the rules of a Mortal Kombat contest. Morally, Respectfully, Honorably, ect...

All the things about his character and personality dictate that he will honor the rules of Mortal Kombat as Light Raiden. And so he did everything according to the rules of engagement with mortals, and so he lost vs two of the most powerful mortal sorcerers in the Mk universe.

That's why I said earlier that the result of that fight was feasible//plausible. Even though I personally believe that someone as old, and as wise, and as experienced as an Raiden is implied to be....he should have won anyway. iMo, Raiden should be able to handle hell, 10:1 of the most powerful sorcerers in the MK universe, in his mortal form. I personally think he has too many advantages, even in mortal form to loose in that kind of situation...but hey, they had to make the story work.

So, I guess I know now that the last "official" Mortal Kombat contest was MK2 (like you said). But the last fight dictated by the rules of Mortal Kombat? That was that fight in the MKD opener. They were all mortals during that whole video.



I didn't.

1.) Shujinko Kills Onaga
2.) Raiden Kills Shujinko despite Shujinko cleaning up his mess and taking out Onaga.

Anything associated with MKA is what I consider the aspect of this sequence as non-canon. Or at least to be the questionable part of Shujinkos continuing to exist.

I mean hell, Jarek "came back" in MKA for gods sakes. Jareks dead in my book, so is Hsu Hao and a couple of others. Question is, since you're constituting Shujinkos bio as canon, shouldn't we also constitute someone like Jareks bio as canon too? Doesn't make sense to do it that way to me.

Yea, anything that came from MKA is pretty much a big steaming pile of questionable maggot infested....well you get what I'm saying. heh.



-- Heh, yea. That was my point from the get go.

-- Again Raiden challenged them to Mortal Kombat, and from that point forward, we should rightfully assume that Raiden is in mortal form. Making the resulting loss that Raiden suffered, plausible.

It would not have made any sense for this morally bound character, to go against the wishes of the Elder Gods for the sake of the mortals that he's trying to protect, and then violate all the rules of engaging mortals in Mortal Kombat just because he has the power to just kill them.

Using god force in a situation that he probably felt was not necessary would not have been morally correct. What IS morally correct though, is what Raiden tried to do. I think it would have been entirely acceptable had he succeeded. The only consequence he would have suffered then, would have been scorn from the Elder Gods for going against their wishes.

For the hell of it though here we go:

1.) The world is in trouble because two sorcerers violated the rules.
2.) Raiden is one of the last two gods left with at least a remnant of an obligation to protect Earth.
3.) He essentially asks the Elder Gods; Shouldn't I go help?
4.) They say No, Let Fujin handle it.
5.) The sorcerers violate again, and make it worse by killing Liu Kang.
6.) Raiden essentially says; I need to go, let me go.
7.) The Elder Gods say No again, even though that likely means the end of Earth.
8.) Raiden literally says; "I can no longer stand idly by..."
9.) Raiden goes to help and the mortals of Earth loose anyway.
10.) As the last viable defendant for Earth, Raiden challenges Shang and Quan to Mortal Kombat.
11.) Raiden looses, but ends up killing the victors anyway.

Point is,

a.) everything Raiden did in that sequence of events was morally driven. It was the "right thing to do".

b.) being morally driven lead him to once again sacrifice his god form for his mortal form so that he could participate.

c.) Yes, yes it was too a "Mortal Kombat" fight. So, the rules are clear especially for Raiden in that case. As one of the most prevalent enforcers of those rules, he followed them like he should have...again. At this point, he was still "Light Raiden", so it makes sense for him to behave that way.

d.) All of this makes a difference when we're considering Dr Manhattan vs Raiden. Because once again, we are seeing Raiden fight in his mortal form....Self restrained again, so that he confined himself to the rules the Elder gods put forth for a Mortal Kombat fight. AND so that if he did win that fight, no one could fault him for behaving the way he did, or for the reasons he did.



Y'know, I'm almost expecting to see Dark Raiden kill at will. I also expect Raiden to be using the corpse as a probe of sorts. To scout out enemies, which will provoke Raiden to intervene and "flex" more frequently. Certainly more inappropriately as well. I expect to see Raiden making examples out of every one that he and ZLK kill.

What I want though? I wanna see Raiden and Zombie Liu Kang kickin' ass and taking names. HA! And in that case, I would expect most all of this restraint (outside of Raidens calculations, of course) to be absent via Dark Raiden.

Kill a boss or two, kill a couple of sub-bosses, and or at least take out some of these dead weight clans that are still in Mortal Kombat for no real reason.

gotta get outta here.

I've said much similar and we do need to learn more about Raiden's past but damn Predator, you really took a lot of time breaking this stuff down.

I do agree especially on the whole bio points of Raiden both before, after and present. It makes you wonder a lot about Raiden.

MKF, this really isn't about his past. Even though yea, in alot of ways his past would help know the character a hell of alot better. heh..

The reason this isn't really about Raidens past, is because all they'd really need to do right now for most all the characters on the roster, is a few key things.

1.) Update these please:



Complete with a competent, cohesive, 100% canon backstory, character description, AND breakdown (like Marvel or Dc does with their characters. It's not as massive a thing as it might seem by how I'm describing it).

Now, it doesn't have to account for every-single-little-thing but, Raidens should probably be one of the largest bios in the game considering how old he supposedly is. "Really old characters" in general apply here as a matter of fact. What is Raiden, eons old right? There should be alot more "points" in Raidens history, that are worthy of mentioning.

2.) Write a competent, cohesive, 100% canon biography on the character. These, need to be much more detailed, specific, and factual as to what was going on recently. (i.e. Just before the characters current appearance.) Hours, days, weeks, months, years since we seen him last. "Recent".

3.) He needs to stop doing THIS.

They did good with MKD in having Shujinko (someone else) tell the games story. MKAs' opener too.

But what I'm saying is, if they're not going to define him, or even hint more obviously that he is more omnipotent than they keep leading us to believe he is, they should stop making it seem like he knows everything.

IF they do keep letting it be Raiden who tells the games' story, and he actually is not omnipotent (knowing all things), then they should explain how he knows these things, and why he isn't the first to know.

For exapmle, they need to let us know that saaaay,

::: "he learns things through people praying to him", or something!

Another example is

:::: "an Oracle tells him stuff"....

another is

:::: "the Elder Gods tell him stuff".

ect ect....If it's not a "divine rite" (just because he's a god, he knows everything, or can do certain things) of his, it should be defined as something else.

Otherwise, they should put it in writing that Raiden does in fact have the divine rite of omnipotence.

4.) SHOW ME!

lol Show me somn'. In game, in a FMV type video, Interviews, whhatever. Show it to me.

5.) All other appearances need to conform to the standard set by the writing.

=====

So you see MKF, comparing Raiden to Dr Manhattan is not really about what's in Raidens past. Even though again, yes, that would also help out a great deal. But in this comparison, it's more about how to put the match on an equal playing field without degrading one of these two characters in the process.

As far as Raiden in particular, it's more about how the MKTeam is gonna present MK's characters to us go forward.

*checks clock*

yahtzee!

drinkin' time!!

Well if DM can transcend time, I'd say Raiden's past is important.

How so?

And doesn't that get a little fuzzy considering Manhattan was at one point, only human? Wouldn't Raiden have more of an initial opportunity, than the now Dr Manhattan?

Mind you, it's an established implication that Raiden's been the same for....ever. By now.

Yes, he was once human, but now he exists in all time. And if there's a weakness in Raiden's past, DM could exploit it.

DM would just point at Raiden and turn him into chunky salsa. Go watch the movie freaking badass mofo.

I don't see your comparison of Darkseid and Shao Kahn versus Dr. Manhattan and Raiden fitting at all; this isn't about people shooting out bolts of different colours, this is about one shooting electricity and another making glass out sand, then said glass into water, then said water into milk. Dr. Manhattan ponders making some humans in another galaxy to amuse himself. He talking about creating complicated organisms out of nothing. That is worlds away from summoning lightning, as he has the ability to change nature, not just manipulate a single aspect of it.
As for the bit about Gods all having unfathomable power and such allowing them to be gods, I was never given that impression based on the things Raiden and the other Gods have done (or not done for the most part). Even the idea of looking at Raiden as anything similar to a the typical Christian God seems impossible because he has not done anything to prove he has so much power. The absence of proof isn't proof he's weak, nor is it proof that he's extremely powerful, but it's a blow to Raiden because until we get this information, it's inconclusive what he can really do.

You got me about Raiden making a direct challenge of Mortal Kombat with them, and I also agree with you about how his losing makes no sense whatsoever if he's supposed to be that powerful. But I believe that that is a way of showing that Raiden is beatable and not as powerful as we want to give him credit; you can argue that it advances the story well and all that, but it does not do Raiden any favours in his personal story. The writers clearly wanted Raiden to be limited, and by doing that, all they've done is shown that he is weaker than two sorcerers. No matter how you slice it, it makes Raiden look like a loser.

It's no secret that I want all aspects of MKA to be non-canon as well, but these were not fan-made bios, these were written by John Vogel himself, who has been handling the story since MKDA. It was decided a long time ago that this game would have all the characters, without taking into account any logical explanations or story, so he worked with what he had and did his best to explain the crap that was MKA. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want MKA to be non-canon, but until we hear otherwise, it should not be removed from the continuity just because we don't like it and don't agree with how the characters are portrayed. Since I did quote Raiden's MKA bio several times, obviously I believe that Jarek's bio deserves to be acknowledged, as much as Sonya's Jinko's, Khameleon's, Onaga's, and the other ones that were written to appease the fans because there is no reason not to look at them as canon. So no, Shujinko was not killed by Raiden, yes Jax threw Jarek off a cliff for no reason and Jarek used a sword to buffer his descent, Raiden is now tight with all the bad guys, Khameleon got her ass handed to her by a stupid Reptile, etc. Some of these are ridiculously stupid, but like we both agreed, so was Raiden making an official challenge that put him at a disadvantage against his two worst enemies, especially after they killed all his friends.

Problem with your idea of Raiden not wanting to go against the Elder God's wishes and designs does not work considering Raiden did that in order to fight against Shao Kahn's forces in MK3 and he relinquishes his status as an Elder God because he wants to disobey them to stop the Deadly Alliance. The fact that he challenges them to MK right at the last minute is a huge problem because it does go against what should be his character; a guy who breaks the rules to do the right thing. This is basically what you're saying: Raiden's trying to prevent a horrible evil that threatens to conquer all the realms, so he...
1. Disobeys the most powerful people in the universe
2. Sees his closest friends and comrades die at their hands
3. Then, instead of just blowing their heads up by winking at them, decides to fight them based on rules that his superiors, who he disobeyed to even get that far in the first place, and respects the honourable rules by proceeding to fight them, but instead of them actually doing it in the traditional fashion like every fight has been done, fights on their terms in a two-on-one battle, at his weakest state.
That is the poorest excuse for a story I've ever heard; if that's Raiden's idea of doing the right thing, then he is a complete moron with issues on making decisions for picking and choosing which rules to follow. Seriously, can you tell me how any of that even makes sense? Yet this is what is being presented to us. All that does is show me that Raiden restricts himself way too much, so if he ever did have some kind of fight against Dr. Manhattan, he'd probably do something stupid like what he did with the Deadly Alliance and ask Dr. Manhattan to make copies of himself so that they could have a fair fight while Raiden decides to be gentle as they fight physically and not use all his lightning powers to do something to scratch Dr. Manhattan. That's how I see it going down if this is how Raiden decides to fight people. He may as well have challenged the DA by tying his hands behind his back, his legs behind his head, and said, "let's go! I can defeat you like this no problem because handicaps are the best way to take on two guys at once who brutally slaughtered the people I love and cherish. BNo matter what, I have to do this fairly to give you guys a chance, screw my logic of beating you guys to a bloody pulp for all the harm you've done, I must be lenient because you can't beat me!"
And here's the best part about what you said that I never even noticed until you brought it up; Raiden ultimately killed the two sorcerers by self-destructing... He was the last line of defense to prevent the Deadly Alliance from gaining control of the realms, he even said that if they revived the whole army, these two would be unstoppable, so why did he decide to use all his energy when Onaga came into the picture? Was the situation not desperate enough with virtually all the main Earthrealm heroes dead? If the Deadly Alliance was such a tremendous threat, why did he not make the appropriate sacrifice before he lost to them? That does show Raiden is really powerful, but at the same time, shows he is a fool who can't keep his priorities straight. Once again, bad writing that's not in Raiden's favour.

I want to see that as well in all honesty; I do believe that Raiden should be on par with beings like Dr. Manhattan when it comes to powers and such. I actually want to write a fanfiction about Raiden at one point to allow this, but that's another time.

Yeah, Predator...I see what you're saying but like Shingo just brought up concerning the whole timeline gig. I don't think though that it's easy to say one way or another with that playing a role.

I mean I don't think Dr. M can control "the heavens" or the Elder Gods which let's face it are on planes of existence outside of Dr. M's control. He can do virtually anything in the universe we all know but where Raiden, Fujin and the Elder Gods comes from is clearly beyond that.

There's a lot of unanswered questions to really consider you know?

I do feel that Raiden's past is important because it can have some impact on the future or current time but we'll never know unless the MK team reveals more about Raiden in like a Raiden:Mythologies or Beginnings...lol

That would be cool.

UPDATE:

Saw the movie today. I didn't think it sucked, but I did leave the theater curious as to what it was that I just watched, and whether I liked it or not. I'm still processing the movie so, no critique or anything at this point.

Now this:



-- That Shao Kahn//Darkseid example wasn't meant to note the difference in color, it was only meant to show the difference in each characters powers.

So, if one of them has primarily an element based power, and the other one has the power to manipulate matter, I only meant to say that those factors only make them different. Not necessarily meaning that one is more powerful than the other.

If that becomes the case however, it would be an easy case for me to make on behalf of Raiden. Because electricity is exactly a manipulation of matter on an atomic level. It's atmospheric, but still. It is what it is.

-- Raiden's the conductor of electricity and thunder. He doesn't need to "summon". The same way that DM doesn't need to summon his command over atomic matter. The way I look at it, it's similar to the way humans produce tears or mucus. We just do it, because that's what we're made up of.

-- That's^^ picky, I know. haha..



That's agreeable. Yea. I mean, I could bust him down, and be really specific as to how I see him and what I think he takes from whatever religious influence but, I suppose I'll pass this go round.



-- Well yea, he's supposed to make himself beatable during a Mortal Kombat confrontation. The problem is the lack of definition for what he's capable of outside the ring and those rules (not trying to repeat myself too much there).But I mean, the most odd part of his whole character description, is that he's presumably a full time God, and only a fraction of his existence is spent in mortal form, and around Mortal Kombat.

So to me it's as if we're trying right now, to decipher less than 1% of his character, primarily based on "what they have shown us about him." To me the stuff that we've been shown that he can do, seems like it should be a drop in the bucket compared to what's possible. But let me pump the brakes on "what's possible" right there.

So yea, I do wanna give him alot more credit than what he's actually shown, but I'm just gonna ask that you consider the God Form:Mortal Form ratio, in addition to the fact that all we have been shown that he can do, is in the lessor percent of the two forms.



-- Hm..that's interesting to me because, I don't think the intent was that "they wanted to limit the character". I think more along the lines of "they had to make it work." And in that process, I think "it just made sense to have it be the way it was."

But I'm alright with how you're looking at it too though. I can see that way being possible.



Aheh, alright. Then paint me "one of the fans who chooses not to acknowledge MKA's story as canon."

I'll live with whatever the consequences of that are until they fix it.

-- For the record, I've heard you advocate dismissing MKA story stuff, so I'm good with that.

And I don't want it to seem as though I'm discrediting Vogel // writing team for doing what they had to under the circumstances. That's not the message I'm trying to send.



Okay, wait a minute. If I understand that right, you're essentially saying that:

{{{{ What Raiden did in that sequence of events doesn't work because, once he went against the Elder Gods wishes, he should have continued to break the rules, and not engage in a "Mortal Kombat" situation that would subject him to the thinking that he'd have to be in mortal form to fight them?
Are you also saying; Nor would he fight the two sorcerers on their turf, and both at the same time, because his job would be easier if he just went ahead and killed them in god form? Is that what you mean? }}}}

If I got that right, and that's what you're saying, then there's too much unnecessary betrayal, depict, and spite happening in there for it to adequately describe the actions of the good god -- Light Raiden.

What I'm saying is, even though Light Raiden was this kind of honorable, and respectful character, he's not gonna pussyfoot about protecting what he feels he needs to protect. Y'know, he'll play by the rules as much as he possibly can to get the job done, but he's not gonna sacrifice 100% of his integrity just to kill off a couple of evil sorcerers.

Raiden is supposed to be a really bold god when it comes to protecting, but even still, he's only going to go against the grain as much as he needs to. He's not even really supposed to be interfering.

Anyway, that's what I take from Light Raidens overall behavior. Leave out MK1 & MKD>>



-- Sure.

1.) Behavior can showcase his moral aptitude. So, if he's only going against the wishes of the Elder Gods, and nothing else (technically now, he's done this twice so far)? It is one of many kinds of indicators that he respectfully disagreed with them, out of a responsibility that they gave to him over EarthRealm at one point or another.

So, he disagrees with them, because he still feels the need to fulfill an obligation to duties of protection about Earth. Even though from MK4 and on, Fujin was the presiding god protector of Earth.

Which, since Fujin is presumed to be the only attending god of earth at the time, I could see Raiden trying to also resolve any possible issues concerning adequate protection for Earth. Especially during times where there are big enough, actual, threats.

That's a complete moral standing, all on its own, based on Raidens behavior patterns during that time. And, I guess I need to say that I agree with that sort of behavior as far as morality goes. That was something that made me like Raiden more during that period in time. This also speaks to "which rules to follow".....

-- Which rules he would //should follow, would largely be based on his moral standing on the issue. So, if it wasn't necessary for him to break 10 rules to get the job done (to beat two evil sorcerers in Mortal Kombat for example). He wouldn't break all those rules.

Say for instance, you are Raiden. You're a very bold, very powerful god. First, compare yourself to the threat. You're gonna give yourself a couple things first, right? Well...:

1.) You know your system backwards and forwards, and are the best one to drive your warriors through it. Fujin is the second best, but he must be busy.

2.) Liu Kang is dead already, but the remaining warriors can take the threat down easily. Especially with your guidance.

3.) Worst come to worst, you also know that these two sorcerers are no match for you individually in a fight. They cowar at your appearance and or authority normally.

Now, regardless of recent events, you would probably calculate that you could easily take them in more than one way, even if it ended up being just you vs them as a team, 2:1. They stand virtually no chance vs you and yours, so long as you act on it now.

So, the short route has nothing to do with alot of rules as far as you're concerned. Everything points in your favor anyway, you know the system better, you got a better team, and you rightfully assume that you are more powerful than these two guys.

There's one major snag from the get go though, you gottta convince your Elders to let you go help out, but they don't budge on the issue. So, you go against your Elder gods wishes anyway, and you figured its a pretty much straight shot to victory after that. Now all you gotta do is assemble, and go prove to your elders that this was the right course of action to take to save the realm.

Then, another major snag; all your warriors fall off in the process only leaving you.

And when you get to the sorcerers, what do they do? They do end up deciding to team up on you....you figured they would though, because they're evil. They don't "fight fair" anyway...but whatever

So you challenge them to Mortal Kombat, figuring that your victory would be that much sweeter, once you did win against these two insolent pest and protect Earth again. (you're a bold god remember now. they're the rag dolls)

Now to fight them, you know you have to be in mortal form, so it's no problem to do that. You adhere to that stipulation and you loose. Damn.
________

That's one good way I thought about it, and why he didn't go all berserk on them when he fought them. He probably didn't factor in a loss, because he rarely ever losses. You don't go into a fight thinking you might loose anyway. That's bad policy with bad carma associated with it.



As Light Raiden, I'd more expect him to use the amount of force or power that he thought was appropriate.

Limit undefined.



From just watching the video, and seeing him look at the problem the two sorcerers were already having with the beast, and THEN add that not even his contribution worked out, he upped the dosage of force and power as he saw and thought would have been appropriate.

I agree though, and my line of questioning is similar about that opener. I mean, I don't think it makes him look like a fool or anything, but I also don't think it did him justice as the leading god character in Mortal Kombat.

He should've kicked all three of their asses iMo. hahaha...but again, gotta make the story work.

_____

Well of course you propose that because if you look at Raiden as a character in the video game and compare him with DM there is no contest what so ever DM would just turn him into road kill with a thought.

We haven't seen Raiden do anything that even remotely compares to DMs power.

You can't just say "well if DM was in a game he would be mortal so then Raiden could beat him" That's a retarded argument made by Raiden fanboys trying to defend their favorite character.

I like Raiden he's a great character and has some neat moves and all that but he has never done anything in the game or storyline wise that even comes close to the power that DM wields in the Watchmen movie.

The Elder Gods are obviously immensely powerful, but didn't they have a terrible battle against the One Being who was feeding off their essence?

This means that the Elder Gods are simply enormously powerful and not actually omnipotent or able to do all things possible on a whim, otherwise the One Being would not have been a threat.

This itself puts a cap on Raiden, even in a pure God form, since at best, he is at Elder God level, and they're not maximally able in the way that Dr Manhattan apparently is.

It says in his MKT level that in order to exist in the realms he has to take a physical form, so Raiden couldn't take a "pure" God form against Dr.M anyway, but this is all hypothetical.

If Manhattan is indeed omnipotent, he could take the Elder Gods, who are logically not.

The One Being was just a big thing that was just a vibe/feeling of evil, remember that Wiki was all bs concerning that and some people believed it...

The Elder Gods despite One Being feeding off them were never defeated either way you look at it and can't interfere directly because they're too powerful and because of the rules....

Waaaat? This thread is still open?

C'mon, this post has become an unnecessary battle between Dr. Manhattan and Raiden.

Not to mention the long posts that you have to sift through to find relevant facts.

Hahaha...that's ridiculous.
1.) Read the whole post next time because you're taking what I said out of context; and
2.) because you took what I said of context, don't be "stupid (definitions 2&3)" next time.

Since I'm more patient than to just "start a frivolous argument", read on:

-- Looking for a "level playing field" has nothing to do with tilting the perception so that it benefits Raiden more than it does DM. Nor does it have to do with manipulating the powers each of them have. It has to do with writing. And that's mainly because there's more written material on both of them, than there is that is actually "shown" of both of them.

So what you do, is take what you've seen + what is written, and try to sum up each character. Then you pit those things about each character against one another...... When you do it that way, it only asks you to consider that all we "see" of Raiden is the lessor of two forms vs Manhattan. Who is always only "seen" once he became "Dr. Manhattan".

If we looked at Manahattan before the accident, that wouldn't be a fair look at the character now would it? It also wouldn't be the more significant ASPECT of the character to show. And therefor, it'd be quite inappropriate to match that aspect of the character against another really powerful character, like what we've "seen" from Raiden. right?

All I'm sayin' is, match Raiden's most prevalent existence (the god form) up against Manhattans most prevalent character (after the accident, the "god") up against each other.

BUT, the problem in trying to do that, is that we suffer from an insufficient amount of information on Raiden.....because he has TWO sides of his character.

a.) The one that we've seen and know more about; and
b.) The one that we know exists outside the MK arenas, but have no information on. Which presumably is supposed to be more powerful than the one we've "seen".

Get it? It's there, he IS a god. There's just not much information about his god form that defines his whole character more adequately. He's a full time Protector God of EarthRealm. He's not a full time "mortal form Mortal Kombat fighter".

Now again, as far as "what we've seen" from both of them. We've only seen Raiden's reduced, human form...perform. While for Manhattan, we know, and have seen that he was a scientist of sorts as a human,AND after the accident, we know and have seen that he can do such things as manipulate matter down to the atomic structure of things.

Would you match Raidens human form vs Manhattans human form? Nah; neither would I. You'd probably wanna match both of them, at their strongest against each other.

That would be Raiden's god form vs Dr Manhattan, after the accident.

"Level Playing Field".

So?

What I'm saying is it can not be considered a "level playing field" if you don't know anything about the most powerful parts of one of the characters.

That's like an Ali vs Foreman fight, and favoring Foreman for all that he has to offer in the fight, but only knowing about Ali's rope-a-dope move. You're gonna go in assuming Foreman would smash Ali against the ropes if he tries that move. When in actuality, Foreman didn't just loose, he got knocked the fuck out. "Why?" Because Ali had more to offer than just the rope-a-dope move.

lol

I simply say, Raiden has more to offer, than what you've "seen". And until they write out whatever else Raiden is capable of, you can't "know" that Raiden will loose to Manhattan.

Try again.




1.) DM doesn't have power over essence.
2.) The extent of the Elder Gods' power has not been defined in any way, shape, or form.
3.) Therefor, that does not put a "cap" on Raiden because we don't know the extent of "able". As per the Elder Gods, or Raiden, or any other God for that matter.
4.) What form Raiden can exist in the realms as, has not exactly been pegged down. However throughout MK's history, he has been seen in different realms in a physical form. So, at least from a hypothetical standpoint, your conclusion is false.

5.) Manhattans omnipotence is interesting to me now. Because I'm not entirely familiar with the character, or Watchman as a comic. I have only watched the movie. As such, from the movie as my only real source of information on the character (which apparently, is an adequate source relative to the book//comics by what I've heard), he is not omnipotent beyond his own self.

What I mean is, he can only "see all things" that have to do with him. No discredit to the character. That's not what I'm trying to do here.

But because Dr. Manhattan is capable of multiplicity, what that would mean for him, is that he would have to multiply enough times to actually be everywhere at all times. I'm not sure he's capable that way, but my perception of him after watching the movie is that he only has power over the atomic value of things, and that he can only "see all things" that have to do with him.

Soooo, by definition, and only according to the movie (which is probably bad practice in the first place) he's not omnipotent.

I'm still open to more information about the character though, cuz he is pretty cool.

That's cute...coming from a guy with a Raiden sig and avy perhaps I should post a link to the definition of Fanboy...you should probably read up on that.

We have not seen anything in any of the MK games that shows Raiden doing anything coming even remotely close to what DM is seen doing in the Watchmen movie.

The argument that he is in "human" form during the MK tournaments is dumb. His life as a god before MK doesn't mean anything. Nor do his non-cannon endings. When making this comparison you must look at the things he has done and is capable of doing in the game. If he had the power of DM he could just disintegrate his enemies with a thought. Obviously, those kinda powers within the game would make him stupid so they had to make him just as WEAK as everyone else. Just as weak as Sonya, Johnny Cage and other regular human mortals. Trying to make speculations on his power before he entered the tournament as a mortal is just dumb and pointless.

I only brought up the "human in tourney" concept because, if that's the case, DM could just destroy Raiden in that time.

I just don't understand why people can't see something so obvious. No let’s make all kinds of presumptions in some weak attempt to prove a point. Forget hard fact just say whatever you want and back it up with speculation.

:: Well, apparently you can read so, I give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to determining "fanboyism" or not. But since you can't tell, I don't give a fuck about that point. We're all on a MK site is the way I figure it so, feel free to keep throwing the term around if you want.

Anyway..

:: I've addressed what we've "seen" in my last post. If you can't grasp the concept of their being 2 prominent aspects of both of these characters, you're in the dark.....and I guess the light I tried to turn on for you, you can't see it anyway. It's up to you to consider and accept the correct information...or not.

:: The argument that he is in "human" form during the MK tournaments is valid, and just.

The Mortal Kombat contest to Raiden, would be like having a to deal with a fun, yet strict relative from time to time.

He doesn't adhere to the rules of Mortal Kombat all the time. And in fact, the "official" Mortal Kombat contest is merely a fraction of a percentage of Raidens existence.

:: "His life as a god before the tournament" is not at all what I'm talking about. Where did you get that from?

I'm talking about "normal Raiden" outside of the Mortal Kombat contest and its rules. At any given time, God Raiden. Who patrols Earth for all eternity. Raiden, "during normal business hours", IF TESTED. Raiden, who is not provoked to teleport from the Heavens, change himself to mortal form, and jump in the ring with mortals because of some rules.

Matter of fact, don't you know that the "official" Mortal Kombat contest is only supposed to happen once a generation? However, "a generation" in Mortal Kombat is hazy to define as well. So far we've only had 2 official contest, but 8 games that keep featuring alot of the same characters.

:: By only looking at what Raiden is capable of during gameplay, we do not consider what is written for the characters full capabilities. And I'm saying, there is virtually noting written that pertains to what he is capable of.

Matter of fact, don't you know that writing defines a character most prevalently? Don't you know that when creating a character, you're supposed to write the story first, and then get on with the consepts, animations, and gameplay attributes of the character BECAUSE the writing dictates those things about that character?

Did you know Raiden can fly? You certainly would not be able to tell that from what he has shown during gameplay.

Did you know that he can also perform dark arts? You certainly would not know that from only looking at gameplay either.

But these things are written, or shown elsewhere in Raidens canon character description. So, "you must" consider them as tools he can ALSO use in a fighting situation outside of the Mortal Kombat contest and it's rules.

:: Limiting a god characters capabilities doesn't make the god weak, silly. It's gives all the characters in the game a level playing field. lol

It also allows the notion of a "fun" game to exist. Because you can't have a "true god" character running around smiting everybody to hell. It wouldn't be fun to experience. Same goes for Manhattan if he were in any game. You'd have to limit him to a shadow of his written, and "big screen (movie)" self.

:: Again, I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm talking about Raiden before the contest existed. You'll have to point these things out. Good luck with that though, because I haven't. Especially in the context of Raiden vs Dr. Manhattan.

Try it-- again.

Hahaha....

"If you can't stand the heat...."

Well, I think it's safe to say that The EG are pretty powerful in their own right since they can't get involved directly. I'd also like to learn more about their history besides Raiden, Fujin etc.