I understand fine but that still doesn't change the fact that we don't know Raiden's true past, who created him(most likely an Elder God or just from the Heavens created?) since that's where he's from and what he among others in MK are truly capable of(not counting the smaller characters like mortals with a few powers or mortals in general but rather the Godly guys)

Elder Gods are pure power that I'm sure would be on par if not more powerful then Dr. M. They're so powerful they CAN'T fight...just to give you an idea. They can also foresee stuff as well.

And btw, Raiden's electricity is only one of his powers...he can teleport, never die, reform anywhere on earth when he actually does get defeated(which only happened once), has the power to resurrect and control people(Liu Kang anyone?) and if you want to take his MKA ending. He became so powerful he destroyed every other realm with ease except Earthrealm....

I'm not saying he'd kill Dr. M since apparently he can't be killed also and is more or less an immortal like Raiden just different.

This again? Oh boy...
We don't need to know Raiden's true past, nor do we need to know who created him to know what kind of power he has. That backstory is irrelevant, and it does not indicate Raiden's power in the least; human error made Dr. Manhattan, and he has ridiculously more power than anything that exists in the Watchmen universe. What does the fact that it was human error that created him do to explain how much power he has? Absolutely nothing.
What of significance has Raiden actually done in the whole series? Dr. Manhattan can manipulate reality, Raiden can hardly be a guide for characters. Aside from being a mentor, he hasn't done much, and if he really could do more, he would. As I've stated before, he does lose to mortals in Kombat, and sure, he regenerated right away, but so did Shang Tsung at the end of that battle; that seems to be a common thing in MK if a sorcerer could do it too after getting his ass handed to him.
What do the Elder Gods have to do with Raiden exactly? This whole discussion is about Raiden and Dr. Manhattan so stop bringing in irrelevant material. Stick to the topic at hand already, because it's annoying to have to switch things up to point out that you're avoiding the real issue here. Elder Gods = dick right now because Raiden isn't one anymore. And to let you know, Dr. Manhattan has foresight as well; he does not look at time linearly, he lives in every moment at once. He knew when he'd start dating SIlk Spectre before he met her, he knew that a great catastrophe would occur in 1985, he knew Kennedy was going to get shot, etc.
So Raiden can teleport, never die, and reform anywhere or Earth... So can Dr. Manhattan. But how does Raiden fight? Via strength and lightning. How does Manhattan fight? Staring at you and sending you to your grave. Regardless of his being able to reform or not, Manhattan does not even need to physically interact with Raiden to put him down.
Did you read his MKA bio or not? Clearly you haven't because Raiden did not ressurrect Liu Kang using his power he used words he read on a wall from an ancient race of necromancers. That's not a power of Raiden's, he just followed instructions and that's it. On that note, once again, stop referencing his fucking MKA ending because it's non-canon, will never be canon, and can only be taken into account if he defeated Blaze, which we know did not happen so drop it already.
Also, as boomboom so happily pointed out, you said Raiden would rape Dr. Manhattan; we're telling you he wouldn't. I hate to break it to you, but your fanboy side is showing, and it's not helping you out with this argument. Dr. Manhattan wins.

Someone bookmark this thread so we can use this the next time wtflegend says he's good at debating, and show anyone that he will:
-Never admit he's wrong even after something has been explained and proven
-Never make a valid point
-Repeat himself over and over
-Never uses any logic


How can someone claim that a character who shoots electricity can destroy someone who can manipulate reality into anything he pleases? That just screams fanboy!

Dr. Manhattan transcends time itself. He exists in the present, past, and future...all simultaneously. If you could somehow destroy him now, he would still exist in another time - even a split second before or after you supposedly "destroy" him. It's a hard concept to fathom, and that's one of Dr. Manhattan's frustrations with humanity...they just don't *get* him.

DM exists at the point at which Raiden is about to be created and could stop it from happening, erasing his existence from history,

Um...Raiden is without beginning or end.

Raiden is eternal. He exists outside of time.

EDIT: Didn't recognize I was actually quoting the dictionary but here you go

edit for the profile:

Odd that I can disembowel and/or decapitate him in the games...

Well, no.1 = playable character.

No. 2 would be the explanation for why he is a playable character. Which, in Raiden's case, it is explained that he sacrifices a pure god form to participate amongst other mortals. But, that doesn't negate the fact that he doesn't "end", or that he doesn't have an unequivocal "beginning". He is not a mortal. He can assume a mortal form so that he can be "touched" in a fight.



At the same time, I'm sure that if Manhattan was a playable character in a fighting game, he would have to be able to "be beaten" or "die" in order for the idea of a fun game to exist. But it would also conflict with the facts that are written // known about the character. Hell, based on written information, Mr Manhattan is not supposed to be thought of in the sense that he can be defeated, or "die." He's supposed to be thought of...like you guys think of him. Quintessential God Almighty.

However, what happens is people read, and feed into the characters abilities, and can't figure out a way "to beat that". So they conclude that since they can't figure out a way, then nothing must be able to beat it. Nothing wrong with that though because it defines the writers intent and ability to produce a convincing character. I'm not knocking Mr Manhattan, or any other popular, powerful character.
-----

Concerning this Manhattan vs Raiden situation, it pretty much is the vice versa. It is to where since there isn't adequate information there on Raidens two separate forms, (there is only some information on the human form), the assumption is that he "must be weaker", since we have only seen the lessor of the two forms consistently.

I say, that's not true, I say that's not logical, and is in fact, bias against Raiden even though the flip side - the inadequacy of information on Raidens god form, would mean that he also does not have a limit to power, attribute, or capability. Because it is not defined whatsoever.

He certainly does not have a problem with space, time, beginning, or end. And theoretically, Raiden doesn't have a single limit unless we're talking about his human form.....which would mean we are talking about a Mortal vs a Mortal in a Mortal Kombat fight.

Which I guess in that case, Manhattan would also have to sacrifice god-ship in order to participate....and he would loose to Raiden.

If that were the case.

If it was god form Raiden vs the quintessential "god almighty" Mr Manhattan, what basis is there for us to conclude that Raiden would just...loose? Raiden's god form has no......"can't".

haha..*shrugs*

If Raiden truly becomes mortal during the tournament, then DM has a way to kill him.

Never seen Raiden do anything as crazy as DM did in that movie... turning people into pizza at will. Not to mention he was fucking silk specter and working on a power generator of infinite power at the same time.

Ha, Ha hearing you of all people lecture others on "logic" is quite ironic :)

-You really have serious grammar issues ^. I feel sorry for your past teachers....probably beating a dead horse on that one lol.

-And you never contribute to any topic but rather post a witty responce thinking you're funny when you're really not.

-Apparently you think you're so "important in the E-world" you think making your name "Alpha_Q_Up_Is_Back" is so original yet rebellious at the same time trying the best to make yourself LOOK important but in reality really isn't. Ohh, and the fact that you still don't get my name right but then again I keep reminding myself...this guy can't even spell his own name right half the time so my mistake.

The fact that you think Raiden's power is just electricity is utterly sad and ignorant to say the least....


Just so I don't sound like a broken record, for one again if we're talking canon and not canon then I guess we should all just stop debating this right now then since Dr. M and Raiden are both fictional characters and can't happen right? lol And yes I'm well aware of the MKA bios, just saying...however Raiden was the one who read it....and how do you know that any joe in MK could do that and that no godly essense or supernatural power is required? Anyone in MK could resurrect people? I think not. Outside of Fujin, Shinnok, Kahn, Shang or Quan besides Raiden I highly doubt anyone else could resurrect and control him like the way he was.... And again, RAIDEN CAN'T DIE...so the fight if you think about it is ultimately pointless despite who has more power or who does what...is irrelevant if you're immortal. Read Predator's post and you'll learn more about Raiden. Not sure why you're trying to elude the backstory of Raiden when that kind of matters....just because we don't know is even more of a reason not to judge Raiden and his past fully. I'm no more a fan of Raiden then you are with Dr. M.... To think anyone can KILL Raiden(someone that clearly can't die is wrong) BTW, one thing I want to add on Raiden's behalf...he actually CAN read/see into people. He's not psychic but he can read into your soul, what you're feeling and get a sense. If you watch the cinama sequences with him speking to the good guys and/or Liu Kang/Kung especially besides the movies and TV show you'll see this.

I'll update this when I have time, but here's my rebuttal... I understand what you're trying to get at with not having the info, but here's the thing; we cannot assume that Raiden's all powerful without a story. The absence of story does not create an argument in Raiden's favour. Dr. Manhattan has these definitions while Raiden doesn't. We may only have info on his mortal form, but keep in mind that the tournament has been over since MK2, and with that being said, why does he need to be human now?
The whole concept of people needing special powers to ressurrect others makes sense, but can Raiden do this by himself? No, he cannot. If he could, he would have done it before he fought the Deadly Alliance. Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung and Quan Chi ressurrect people as per their stories frequently, and based on their magical abilities, it seems they don't need to look through old inscriptions to do it. It was something he can only do again as long as he goes to that necromancy thing; therefore, it's not a typical power he can call upon at will.

If it's impossible for Raiden to die, then it's a contradiction that he became mortal at some point.

I'd say so too. But I think this is evident considering MKDs opening video, that Raiden does not "fully" become a mortal at any point.

Speculation on this point but, I don't believe he sacrifices the quality of eternal simply to participate in a fight. I look at it as more of a capability. Same way you guys have said that Manhattan can change his mass and density.

Something about Raidens weaknesses to be fair:::

The closest I've seen to actually killing Raiden that made any kind of sense, would be Shinnoks MK4 ending. Where he essentially disbursed whatever it is that allows Raiden to be. It was non-canon, but that made some sense because an Elder God should know the secrets associated with a typical god, and how to actually destroy those things.

Small indicator that there may actually be a way to "destroy eternal". Or that there may be a way to dismember those qualities in a single being. But I don't think Dr. Manhattan is that powerful based on this discussion. I haven't read anything that suggest that he is capable that way either.

Matter of fact, isn't Manhattan essentially a man-made god? i.e. a mortal with a ridiculous amount of power?



"Merit"



Explain Jonny Cage's return in Mk4 then. Where Raiden is sought after by Cage to help restore his soul so he can come back to life.

Although I do agree that when the resurrection of Liu Kang was happening, I thought it was pretty odd that Raiden would even "need" a "code" of any sort to perform that way. It should simply be something that is forbidden for good gods to do, as per a god code of ethics, or something.



Raiden hasn't. The same or similar is true of Shang Tsung, when he "transforms" to meet the appearance of something or someone he is not.

How was Raiden able to conform to the rules of Mortal Kombat if he wasn't mortal when he participated? Wasn't that one of the stipulations of the tournament?

The Mortal Form can die, y'know?

So, then...Raiden has put himself in a position before in which he can die?

Haha is there anyone more predictable than wtflegend? He pathetically insults my username for the 57389057349085390th time, pathetically insults my grammar (yet there is nothing misspelled or no punctuation errors, and yes you are beating a dead horse because if you had some sort of comeback that doesn't involve spelling/my username/claiming someone is trying to look cool on the internet, then you'd finally have something original). Face it, you're a moron to think that Raiden would ass rape Dr. Manhattan. Everyone has pretty much PROVEN you wrong. Just for once admit it. Everybody here except you already knows you've failed yet again.

That's just the thing though, we do know a lot more about Dr. M then Raiden...his mortal form is only what he is for the storyline element and being able to "compete" in MK in general when he has to fight(if you consider white glowing eyes mortal lol)

I forgot who brought it up before I think it was Pred but whoever it was makes a good point concerning for the video games Raiden has to have a mortal form to be able to fight(if Dr. M was in a video fighting game he'd have to have some kind of weakness or way of being hurt) know what I mean?

And I totally forgot about MK4 and the whole Johnny Cage gig(thanks ThePredator lol) that was also the initial rumor concerning MK 3 movies story element and Cage. Raiden would resurrect him not sure if you guys remember that rumorville but that was one possibility concerning how/if Cage was brought back some how after death.





The only thing I've failed to do at this point is a way to prevent you from shitting in my threads with stupidity, much less prevent you from posting in my threads all together.

Yep, and of course you're the only dope on here still calling me a retarded name that was funny what like 4-5 years ago in a poor attempt at a laugh? Wow, and yet...who's laughing here exactly besides you? Ohh wait I can answer that.... NOBODY. Since you obviously have no clue most don't even refer to me as legend anymore anyway but rather MKF30 or MKF for short...mr. "I can't spell and think I'm funny"

Hey, just stating the facts I can't help if you have horrible grammar or choose to be stupid. Example: My name, much less your own....yet you're going to try to tell me "there's nothing wrong with my grammar and spelling"

Obviously, you can't comprehend nor read the English language since I never said "Raiden would rape Dr. Manhatten" please quote me saying that and I'll give you a cookie and props but best of luck because I never said that. *yawn* Where and when did I say that?

I know you're grasping at straws at this point but when you have to make up lies and put words in my mouth that I never said in the first place just to try to keep up it just reeks of "pathetic"(and he calls me the moron)

Funny, last time I checked there's good valid points for both sides of this topic by several people in here and I must say, you're not one of those people contributing but rather doing what you do best as usual. Trolling the forums, starting shit with me with your typical, pointless banter and shitting in one of my threads...just like the good old days with your shithead buddies...where are they now btw? Ohh yes...gone, banned or in exile

When you feel like actually contributing to the topic and discussing despite who you agree or disagree with, please let me know. Otherwise you're just thread trolling in here with no purpose....

No.

Raiden has to put himself in a position that will allow the possibility for him to loose a Mortal Kombat fight. That's what it's all about anyway. "I bet ya can't beat the best of the best 10 times in a row in order to take over Earth."

It infers that mortals can't beat the god form, so in order for things to be fair, Raiden has to make himself accessible. He has to make it possible for mortals to beat him if he wishes to participate amongst other mortals. (which should still be laughable considering how old, wise, and experienced he's supposed to be, but that's another story)

There are two forms of being here:

Mortal = can die

Eternal // God = exists outside the spectrum of time. There is no "birth", therefor there there is no "death" to speak of.
--

I believe the insinuation here, is that of Christian belief in its base. Where even though the body can die, the spirit transcends that bodily form. So, even though you can kill the assumed form of mortal for Raiden, you cannot manipulate the spiritual form of Raiden.

That spiritual form, also happens to be of pure God origin. Which, by my calculation, privileges Raiden's longevity and vitality as a god character, rather than puts him at a disadvantage of any sort. He's always gonna be a God, because that's what he was first presented to us as.

Assuming the form of a mortal does not disturb the fact that he's an eternal god. It's an ability = Just something he can do.

Let me reply to this once more actually.



Why not assume he is at least more powerful than he has been shown? There is certainly nothing wrong with doing that as per what the canon has lead us to believe about the character.

As a matter of fact, to assume that he is "all powerful" to some extent would be within the parameters of the characters admittedly, scanty dualistic description. To do so also coincides with the fact that he has to reduce himself in form, in order to be a viable participant with mortals. It certainly is not a "1-up" in terms of power for him to change to a mortal form.

-- The last "official" tournament was Mk4. I think it was Liu Kang that won that one. After that game, Raiden challenged Quan Chi and Shang Tsung to Mortal Kombat in MKD. They accepted the challenge together, and Raiden lost. I can see that being feasible.

Just saying that his being mortal for that fight is legit. Now, outside of the Mortal Kombat contest....who knows what form he's presenting himself in. There isn't an indicator for us to be able to tell the difference, and yea, it's an irritant that I think needs to be cured by the developers.

Far as this more ruthless, dark Raiden, I can't tell exactly what form he is in. But I assume that he's running around in human form still. That doesn't make much sense to think that, I know. But I just do. I think that he might even be stuck in human form because of the fight with Quan and Shang in the EtherRealm.

The only real indicator for this, is that he was incapable of a full reconstitution back on earth. Another, more subtle indicator would actually be that he needed the scripture from the necromancers to resurrect Liu Kang.
And so, I think this whole "fight in the EtherRealm, and taint situation" might be why he remembers what happened prior to the sacrifice, and is acting on some of those same impulses he had....in human form...during the last Mortal Kombat challenge.

He's not supposed to remember anything, or be behaving in the manner that he is after a sacrifice.



Refer to last response about MK4 Johnny Cage.

Finally, someone who can present arguments in a plausible way.
Johnny Cage's death was retconned with Cage's MKDA bio, and even the MK4 comic written by John Tobias himself does not reference Cage's death and resurrection; therefore, Raiden did not resurrect Johnny Cage and no longer has that power, so the argument isn't valid. Also, if he could still resurrect people, like I said earlier, he'd have brought back Liu Kang normally and not gone through the whole necromancer and dark magic bit.
Raiden needed to be human to be beatable in the tournament, but the tournament ended in MK2, there is no more MK (MK3 and MK4 were not official tournaments, they were all-out wars); therefore, why does he keep putting on the human suit? If all he can do in the world of mortals requires him to be a mortal, then he has no chance really. The thing is, Dr. Manhattan does not restrict himself when he does anything, he has no rules to follow, and any rules that already exist, he can break easily. He can make things out of literally, nothing at all. He has admitted to walking on the sun and he has the ability to visit other galaxies without portals. If Raiden has a form that allows him to do all this, then he needs to prove it, but as far as I'm concerned, since MK4, Raiden has not needed to limit himself.
Speaking of MK4, Shinnok kills people on a whim, no different from Dr. Manhattan in various endings (Reptile and Tanya's are good representations of this). Completely unaided, Shinnok kills people with a mere thought, no contact, nothing at all. I know that bringing up the endings is silly, but this is what Dr. Manhattan does and the closest example of what kind of power he has in relation to MK. Raiden has never exhibited this power, and I have to ask, what keeps Raiden from blowing people up?
"If this was a video game, then he could be beatable! YAY!" is a silly thing to propose. We may be talking about fictional characters, but that doesn't mean they must be stuck in their media.
Pred, you propose a really interesting concept. Raiden's God form = a spiritual form, something that Dr. Manhattan doesn't seem to be able to do. This is a problem for this kind of discussion though, as in that situation, they both no longer exist on the same plane; Dr. Manhattan is a mortal with this infinite power, but Raiden (assumption only) can only achieve this level of power in a non-mortal plane. They can only have equal power in places where the other cannot exist. Interesting turn this discussion has gone now.

Dunno...seems like he's cheating a bit if he's not putting his soul on the line like everyone else.

Y'know, for a second there, I almost forgot about retcons. *sigh*

(!!! aaahhhh!! *pulls hair out*)

I'll take the lump on that then.

There's room for some nifty speculation as far as Raiden being able to resurrect people regardless but, I'll leave that alone this time and see what happens.



-- Good question. This is all I could scrape up on Raiden during MK3-T





But, you know how that goes..."canon legitimacy", ect.

-- Far as MK4, my fault. I assumed that since "it can be won by mortals", and since it was actually won by a mortal, that it was the last official contest.

-- About restrictions. Raiden is an honorable, moral character man. So, operating under these pretenses, we have to expect a certain sort of behavior from the character.

So since the Elder Gods put these rules in place for Mortal Kombat (like parents), we have to assume that Raiden (the "good son". so to speak) would try to honor them down to the letter under normal circumstances.

No doubt ruthless Raiden has already violated alot of his normally honorable character. Which is why I think (1.)resurrecting a dead champ, (2.) using dark magic,(3.) making deals and playing puppet master with the evil guys, (4.) and essentially going AWOL should presumably, violate some sort of "Code of Ethics" amongst gods and how he is suppose to perform.

So yea, I do believe that Raiden could also break any rules that are there quite easily. Which is why this Dark Raiden is doing just that as far as things have been explained to us as "out of character" for Raiden.

He's breaking all the rules of a god right now. They're ethical though, like letting this corpse run around and kill innocent's without any remorse, or restraint as to the corpses objective. Since the corpse has done these sorts of things, and Raiden is responsible for the corpse, then Raiden is ultimately responsible for the death of innocents (by my calculation, anyway).

Which is just a testament to an ethical violation for a supposedly normal good god.

-- The things that DM can make or do vs what Raiden can are subject to the media that this character is presented to us in (it is absolutely a disadvantage that should not be viewed as a weakness for Raiden.). This is not a graphic novel, or lengthy string of comics, this is a video game. One shot, one kill. If they foul up, the character just suffers from lack of an explanation. Which is my beef with the developers and people who think that it means that the character is weaker because of the lack of explanation.

But, we can not expect to have these minuscule situations happen and accounted for -- for this particular character, through a game that only happens once every 2-2 & 1/2 yrs.

Only now do I expect them to act on this because everything points to "can do" right now. They can write it, they can animate it, they can make us work for it, they can program it, ect...It can be done now for every character on the roster. MkvsDc is a firm punch in the face to fans for missed opportunities exactly like this issue.

Point is, I don't put it past Raiden to be able to perform similarly as other god characters are believed to be able to. After all, he is actually a god character, unlike Dr. Manhattan. Which btw, should not be taken as a discredit to the character like I keep saying.

I just think there should also be a distinction drawn.



Apparently, all of that action pertaining to Shinnok was non-canon. I do give Shinnok his credits, but I am sorely disgusted by how he was handled. Some of the most peculiar things that an Elder God can do should have been explained or shown to us in that game.

The answer to your question however, is Honor, Morality, Responsibility, and Consideration.

We've seen what happens when those principles are ignored by Raiden though, it's called Shujinko.

Which is canon btw. Jinko's dead as a doorknob.



-- I don't think it's silly at all. Because at the time of that comment, the inference was that one is "more all mighty" than the other. Further, it was the inference that because you can kill Raiden during regular gameplay, that he is somehow "weaker"?

No, that's not true or logical at all iMo. All it means is that they had to make him playable, and the only way to do that with a god character, is to make him destructible, or susceptible to the playable inference of death....in a game that is about fatalities.

The same would have to be true of Dr. Manhattan if he was a part of a game that says "Finish Him" and if that media was the main one that dictated the perception of his capabilities....just like Raidens is subject to. He would have to be limited for the concept of "fun" to be effectively established in a-n-y game. Imagine Dr. Manhattan in Mortal Kombat as is. Forget about all the arguments over bugs, and glitches, and unbalanced characters.

"Manhattan isn't touchable at all! You can't even punch him and have it count for any of his life bar, because he would just finish you when the match started....with a thought! You can go right up the ladder with him with absolutely no problems at all! YaY!"

What fun would that be if Raiden was like that just because you expect a god to always be a certain way? See? Y'gotta be reasonable, and respect the media that the character is being presented to you in.

Point is, the things that benefit Manhattan don't make Raiden weaker. Particularly the writing. It simply means that the media is different, and maybe even that the writers careful pen skills are are more meticulous than the other.

I guess what I'm essentially asking for people to do, is be fair.

Subject Manhattan to the Mortal Kombat contest (which would limit him appropriately), and at the same time, submerse Raiden in the writing possibilities of other media had he been the focus like Manhattan has (which would give him the appropriate bump). Then, consider the types of characters we're talking about, all at the same time.

One of these guys is actually a god character....the other is not.


-- I always presumed that people understood that there was a contrast to draw between Raidens God//spiritual//celestial//cosmic form and Mortal form.

And as a extra, I thought people understood that Raiden appears before characters in the game in god form, just with a human facade so that he doesn't blind or terrify other humans. haha...

I said in another thread that I like how Mortal Kombat grounds itself in truth about something...somewhere alot of the time. And that the further away from that they get, the worse and worse the games will become.

Well Raiden, behaves like a Christian God, or Jesus, or an Angel. And as far as I've read, they appear before man as any-frickin-thing they want. But that doesn't mean they actually became human just to appear that way. It means they did "what Jesus would do". (get it? "w.w.j.d.")

: Raiden does what God in the Bible, did with Moses. He spoke to, or appeared before Moses and eventually gave him the 10 commandments.

: Raiden does what Jesus in the Bible, did with Mary. He appeared before her as her son.

: Raiden does what the Archangel Micheal in the Bible, did. He appears as a human with wings and a sword to carry out the agenda of God.

See? Doesn't make those figures less a God , Jesus, or Angel. It simply makes their appearance....flexible. Ha!
-----------

Finally, I don't think they have to exist on different planes in order to both be at max capability. Raiden's passion for mortals, and the respect that he has for the wishes of the Elder Gods prevent him from violating a rapport that he balances between the two.

The only way thus far that we have seen Raiden limited, is by self restraint. We'll see how this whole Dark Raiden thing plays out though.



haha..

If that is the case, then it's officially a stalemate.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a stalemate.

But there is no way that we can conclude that this is a landslide either way either. All I propose, is that it needs to be a level playing field.

And since it isn't, expect a bias against the less defined character, Raiden.